Pornography and the Pick-Up Artist
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A quick thought here on the controversy on our site from a few weeks ago about the effects of “PUA-ism” on gender relations.
Some of our readers seem to have two assumptions about the phenomenon:
1. That it causes, or at least amplifies, “objectification” (the nature of which we won’t get into here). Using a very simple definition, we’ll say that to objectify means to regard someone like an “object” or an “Other” and not as a human being worthy of dignity and respect.
2. That as a result, PUA-ism in general is bad, because it ultimately encourages men to hurt women by “dehumanizing” (objectifying) them in mens’ eyes.
Point 1 can go either way; I’m not convinced that it really does exacerbate objectification, since the dating/mating game is filled with objectification from both sides from the get-go, but I’m open to the possibility.
I’m very skeptical, however, about the idea that, even if it does amplify objectification, that it results in bad consequences for women. To put it briefly, what do we want? Men who have the confidence and ability to pick up women, or men who don’t? Who is more likely to sexually assault a women? A man with the confidence and ability to have consensual sex, or a man who doesn’t?
I’ve heard arguments similar to the ones against PUA about pornography (the regular stuff, not the crazy-ass violent or degrading shit): how it objectifies, dehumanizes, and ultimately encourages men to hurt women, and I don’t find them convincing on the last count. I’ve read some articles in the past couple years that lead me to think it may have the opposite effect: that the higher the availability of porn (or to put it another way, the less sexually-repressed the society and the media are), the lower the incidence of sexual assault. Granted, I’m not sure that massive studies have been conducted to find conclusions either way, and correlation is far from causation, but it makes sense to me. The easy availability of porn probably functions like a steam valve, and again, who’s more likely to commit sexual assault: a man who’s cut off from sexual stimulation, or a man who has at least some fantasy access?
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nightshade
9:37 am | Sep 24, 2008LOL, I can’t believe we expend so much energy talking about PUA.
wlee815
11:19 am | Sep 24, 2008I’m very happy that we’re openly talking about the subject of pick up artists (PUA), and the subject of getting better with women in general. This was a major sore point in my life, and, based on the feedback I’ve received through the “contact me” link on betterasianman.com, I’m quite certain that I’m not alone.
Regarding the subject of “encouraging men to hurt women,” I now extend an open invitation to 1 member of the fighting 44’s forums to join me at the next ABCs of Attraction bootcamp seminar that I will be teaching in November. In order to attend, you must fulfill these requirements:
1) You are female.
2) You honestly believe that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraction “encourages men to hurt women,” or some similar permutation of that statement (hurt, lie, manipulate, etc.).
I would be VERY surprised if, after attending all three days of the bootcamp, that you still believe that #2 is true. Quite frankly, I think it’s bullshit, so I’m putting everything on the line to demonstrate it to you. I will even provide a partial reimbursement to your airline ticket with my own personal cash.
If not a single female from the 44’s accepts this invitation, I expect to see some females stepping forward on the forms and retracting those statements of how they think the ABCs of Attraction curriculum “encourages men to hurt women.” (or some other permutation, like hurt, lie to, manipulate, etc.)
I hope to hear from you soon. Contact me at editor@betterasianman.com
Makulita
4:50 pm | Sep 24, 2008Solve this inequality.
3 days(Fly to bootcamp + Listen to shit for hours on end about PUA) ÷ Slight reimbursement for total money spent on these shenanigans > Stepping down on a vB bulletin board
SOLUTION SET: { 0 }
———
That is a button fucking load of work for a piddly tradeoff.
…Unless you’ll come down HERE and let us pluck off all your manly facial hair, put make up on you, dress you like a girl (a fashionable one– we ain’t cruel) and we go hit the clubs until your heels or your ankles give out and hang with a bunch of chicks dressed as a chick seeing your PUA in action as we do.
Vhat vill yew do now?
wlee815
6:10 pm | Sep 24, 2008Makulita,
Are you a person who honestly believes that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraction “encourages men to hurt women?” If yes, then here’s your opportunity to see if it’s really true. If money is an issue, contact me and we’ll work something out. My objective is not to put you under financial strain, and if I can afford it, I’ll cover 100% of your expenses.
On the other hand, if you don’t believe that this is true, then my offer doesn’t apply to you.
-William
Makulita
6:35 pm | Sep 24, 2008Something’s wrong when I have to pay any amount of money in order to see an opposing view.
Other than that, the ambiguous meaning of “hurt” is pretty much the source of all the RRRAGE and ire coming from the 44s women.
I don’t know which meaning you’re thinking of when you use “hurt” but when we see “encourages men to hurt women” we think of “encourages men to hurt the dignity of women by treating them as sex objects and a writhing mass of indiscernible tits and vajayjay by having the audacity to use ‘techniques’ that isn’t applicable to every woman which only furthers to collectively piss us off.”
C’mon now dude, you know its dangerous to shorten things into simple phrases like that. Let’s get wordy, don’t worry because it’ll be obvious to you and me when shit is getting ridikkulous*.
* Misspelled on PURPOSE, you fucks!
kimtae
8:40 pm | Sep 24, 2008Seriously D, another topic? Let this shit die a natural death already or do you eant to be known as the circus barker for PUA’s?
groinpull
9:05 pm | Sep 24, 2008Meh, what’s so different between this and the ‘Rules’ that women so closely followed several years ago? Women have all sorts of stupid rituals and mindgames to play on unsuspecting guys, treating relationships like it’s just clockwork. I’m all for PUA.
kwak76
9:54 pm | Sep 24, 2008Makulita,
think of this way. it’s like a free trip to nyc.
Xian
11:19 pm | Sep 24, 2008Women are from Jupiter, Men are from UrAnus.
As I’ve said before, if you are stuck trying to get from Los Angeles to San Francisco, it doesn’t help you to scrounge a ride to Cleveland.
If your goal is to get laid and help dudes get laid, then by all means, that’s fine. It is what it is. You wanted to go to Cleveland and I’m not going to be a hata.
If your goal is empowerment, enjoy your ride to Cleveland, but it’s not any closer to San Francisco.
Guys using smoke and mirrors to have sex with women are not addressing their security issues with something concrete. I doubt it has any affect one way or another on probably of sexual assault.
So no, my critique is not that it is somehow worse in objectifying women the mainstream. Nor is it that anyone shouldn’t be having sex.
It’s once again the idea that somehow this constitutes empowerment. I’d like to see one rational support for this ridiculous notion.
If you like eating all meat, that’s awesome. Just don’t call it a “diet”.
wlee815
11:22 pm | Sep 24, 2008Makulita,
I didn’t think about it that way, and I was wrong. You absolutely should not have to pay any amount of money in order to see an opposing view. You are right about that.
To all of the 44’s forum members:
I’ll pay for 100% of your plane ticket, plus 3 nights (Fri, Sat, Sun) at this hostel:
http://www.jazzhostels.com/jazzonthetown.php
My two requirements still remain:
1) You are female.
2) You honestly believe that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraction “encourages men to hurt women,” or some similar permutation of that statement (hurt, lie, manipulate, etc.).
There is no question in my mind that the objections, made by women, to the ABCs of Attraction, are made from a place of ignorance regarding the actual content of the material that is taught. That’s why I’m willing to reiumburse 100% of your travel arrangements if you are willing to see ALL of what we teach (3 nights of: lecture, field outing, post-outing debrief). After it’s over, you must talk with me on the podcast to tell me, if you still believe what you did before the weekend started, or if your position changed, and the reason why that was the case.
At the time of this writing, a round trip flight from LA to NYC is $320.00, and a 3 night stay at the hostel is $38.00.
If you would like to move forward with this, contact me at editor@betterasianman.com. The bootcamp is on 11/7/08, 11/8/08, and 11/09/08.
-William
tokyolovestory
11:28 pm | Sep 24, 2008Here’s my counter offer:
I now extend an open invitation to any [heterosexual] man who thinks he knows better than women about what it is to be a woman:
I will provide partial reimbursement of the fees so I want you to get a complete sex change and some plastic surgery to make you attractive. I would be very surprised if after three years as a woman, you still believe what you do about gender relations and the “fairness” of the treatment of men and women. If you refuse this offer, I expect you to keep your mouth shut about how a woman should or should not feel about how men treat her; the apology for being a jackass and assuming you know a woman’s world better than she does would be a given.
Any takers?
wlee815
11:36 pm | Sep 24, 2008Xian,
Thanks for your honest and candid feedback. From what I gather in your comment (#9), you do not believe that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraciton “encourages men to hurt women.” Am I right?
Now, regarding your request for a rational way to support the ridiculous notion that learning how to get better with women constitutes empowerment. I would like to now assure you that I am unable to support that notion in any rational way. Furthermore, I believe that there IS NO WAY for anyone to rationally support that notion. (However, if anyone would like to try, please feel free to take a stab at it).
I have said on my blog: “We can talk day and night about how awesome it is for Asian American men to gain empowerment through activism, on-line petitioning, and letter writing, but let’s be honest with ourselves: you ain’t empowered if you ain’t good with women.”
You are 100% correct; I have no support for the claim that “getting better with women” will make an Asian American man empowered.
The only thing that I can say with 100% certainty is that I have never in my life felt empowered as an Asian American man until I became better with women. Prior to that, all of the activism activities that I did (organizing protest rallies, letter writing campaigns, and using my personal savings in order to finance various activism initiatives started by others) came from a place of insecurity.
However, now, after I’ve become better with women (possibly on a similar level to the guys on the 44’s, who are already naturally good with women and have been for their whole lives), all of my activism activities come from a place of total confidence, security, and assuredness.
I feel more empowered and capable now than I ever have in my entire life.
-William
Makulita
12:02 am | Sep 25, 2008You know, you shouldn’t have to pay people to see your view either.
…Goddamn lemme rephrase this shit then:
Money, ideally, should not be exchanged in any way or form in order to see opposing views. Period.
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
wlee815
1:27 am | Sep 25, 2008tokyolovestory,
I never said that I knew what it was to be a woman, nor have I made any statements about the fair or unfair treatment of women.
Makulita,
You’re right, no one should have to pay people to see a point of view. But I’m not paying you to see my point of view. I’m reimbursing your travel expenses so that you to observe the content of the bootcamp in its entirety. After it’s over, I’d like to an honest opinion (either positive or negative) that is based on an actual understanding of the actual content of what is taught at the ABCs of Attraction bootcamp. I’m not interested in getting you to see my point of view; I just want to hear an honest and sincere opinion that is based on the actual content that we teach at the bootcamp, and whether or not you think we are “encouraging men to harm women.” Quite frankly, I don’t think we are.
There is no question in my mind that the objections, made by women, to the ABCs of Attraction, are made from a place of ignorance regarding the actual content of the material that is taught. That’s why I’m willing to reiumburse 100% of your travel arrangements if you are willing to see ALL of what we teach (3 nights of: lecture, field outing, post-outing debrief). After it’s over, you must talk with me on the podcast to tell me, if you still believe what you did before the weekend started, or if your position changed, and the reason why that was the case.
Not a single female activist who has spoken negatively about the ABCs of Attraction has ever observed the actual content and teachings.
That said, my offer remains open to you, Makulita, or any other person on this forum who fulfills these two requirements:
1) You are female.
2) You honestly believe that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraction “encourages men to hurt women,” or some similar permutation of that statement (hurt, lie, manipulate, etc.).
If you’re interested, contact me at editor@betterasianman.com
-William
kwak76
1:59 am | Sep 25, 2008In the past there have been females who did attend the boot camp. They were either somebodies girl friend or female friend. The women who attended usually observe or sometimes participate if they wanted to.
Again Will and I are the only ones who took the boot camp. I wrote extensively on my boot camp experience and I think this maybe a good chance for someone else to observe and see for themselves how or what actually happens in a boot camp.
THX1138
2:53 am | Sep 25, 2008Personally, I think it would be very uncomfortable, if not worse, for many women to attend this boot camp–even if she went with a friend. She possibly could be the object of unwanted attentions, given that this camp is primarily–let’s be honest here–for really horny men who are looking to get sex.
Anyway, the recurring PUA issue has certainly contributed to furthering inter-gender understanding and mutual solidarity here in the AA online community.
Or maybe not.
Heyyu
7:38 am | Sep 25, 2008To both Makulita and Tokyolovestory: I’m willing to accept both your offers and dress/live as a women for a short time to see from the opposite point of view. That’s right, so long as I get to have some free lesbian sex on the side too, I’m all for it. Where do I sign up?
Xian
8:46 am | Sep 25, 2008The only thing that I can say with 100% certainty is that I have never in my life felt empowered as an Asian American man until I became better with women. Prior to that, all of the activism activities that I did (organizing protest rallies, letter writing campaigns, and using my personal savings in order to finance various activism initiatives started by others) came from a place of insecurity.
Have you thought that maybe your cause-and-effect are off? It didn’t work BECAUSE it was coming from a place of insecurity.
My experience is that doing good for others from a place of security also happens to be the most effective way to attract others.
Don’t get crossed-up here, though–if you try to be an activist strictly to make yourself feel less insecure or pick up people and not to help others, it will almost certainly backfire.
See, I’ve had both experiences. My experience with being perceived as intensely attractive due to gimmicks is that it props one up in a hollow way at first, but quickly becomes annoying, and bothersome.
wlee815
10:16 am | Sep 25, 2008Xian,
Yes, I know it sounds silly that something so unrelated to activism, such as being better with women, could make me feel empowered.
You are probably right, and my cause and effect may very well be “off,” as you say, but as I became better with women, the “place of insecurity” that I mentioned simply went away, and I felt empowered. All of the activist activities from that point forward came from a place of total confidence, security, and assuredness. Quite simply, I finally felt empowered. I believe that other Asian American men who share similar experiences to mine, if they were able to overcome the mental obstacles that I described on betterasianman.com (by whatever path they chose, not necessarily mine), would feel empowered as well.
I’m not trying to be an activist. I am an activist.
I’m not an activist strictly to make myself feel less insecure or to pick up girls; I give my time, money, and effort to support a multitude of activist causes in order to help others. I attend protest rallies, participate in letter writing campaigns, and provide financial support to Asian American non-profit organizations.
Xian, on what basis do you imply that my intentions in activism would be anything other than to help others?
-William
tokyolovestory
11:31 am | Sep 25, 2008I never said that I knew what it was to be a woman, nor have I made any statements about the fair or unfair treatment of women.
Then why would you even begin to assume that the reasons that we are offended are “bullshit?”
Heyyu,
Good. Come to San Diego, CA. Let me know when your flight arrives. If you don’t have a direct flight from wherever you are to San Diego, I can travel up to LAX if need be to pick you up. I’m sure I can arrange for a place for you to stay. You would, of course, be expected to act like the women who are the main targets of interest to the PUA community–you will be having relations and relationships with men for the majority of the time. However, you will have opportunities for lesbian activity as well if you wish, because this particular area has a pretty high percentage of homosexuals. PM me with the information of your arrival and I will come pick you up. We can then choose the most recommended surgeon for the type of procedures we are talking about. You may also want to look into different types of hormone therapy they offer. Also, because we will be going to clubs as often as possible, start practicing on wearing those high heels as early as possible. I’d say now. Oh, and just to let you know… They say it’s easier to make a hole than a pole (I’m sorry for the vulgarity) so I applaud you for your willingness to give up what you’ve had for the past however many years you’ve been on this earth. I know you’re doing this with the full knowledge that it may not be quite so easy to go back. (Especially after the hormone therapy.)
groinpull
12:32 pm | Sep 25, 2008put me down for living as a woman as well. and yes, lesbian sex better be included.
wlee815
12:35 pm | Sep 25, 2008tokyolovestory,
I never said anything about whether or not you’re offended, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to here.
However, what I do think is bullshit, is that any woman would say that the ABCs of Attraction curriculum “encourages men to harm women” without having first observed the actual content of the ABCS of Attraction bootcamp.
That’s why I’m willing to reiumburse 100% of your travel arrangements if you are willing to see ALL of what we teach (3 nights of: lecture, field outing, post-outing debrief). After it’s over, you must talk with me on the podcast to tell me, if you still believe what you did before the weekend started, or if your position changed, and the reason why that was the case.
My 2 requirements for this are:
1) You are female.
2) You honestly believe that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraction “encourages men to hurt women,” or some similar permutation of that statement (hurt, lie, manipulate, etc.).
So, tokyolovestory, do you honestly believe that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraction “encourages men to hurt women,” or some similar permutation of that statement (hurt, lie, manipulate, etc.)?
If yes, then I hope you would consider my offer. Contact me at editor@betterasianman.com
-William
evil_FUX
3:56 pm | Sep 25, 2008Can I have yo’ numba? Can I have it?
kwak76
4:53 pm | Sep 25, 2008You know this maybe a chance for someone else to see the boot camp for what it is. Maybe it is bunch of guys who are just horn dogs or maybe it is bunch guys trying to improve themselves.
What i don’t understand is this is an open invitation and seems innocent enough where there can be open communication involve. It seems allot people just want to be judgmental about it and just write it off.
Think of this way a free trip to NYC. See the boot camp for what it is. If is sexist than explain why and how it can change for the better or if it is not than also explain how it is not. The only way to know for sure is to experience yourself.
I say this again Will and I are the only ones took the boot camp. What I am surprise is that so many people here are just being judgmental about it without actually seeing what actually happens.
kwak76
5:40 pm | Sep 25, 2008tokyolovestory,
The boot camp is not about knowing more or better than a women. At least from my experience. The boot camp focuses on more on the students. So it is more about guys.
There is allot of anger in your post. Allot. I understand your position is that you believe that PUA or ABC method is all about sexual objectifying women and the goal is just to step on women. I won’t defend that there are elements in the PUA community that do that.
Now before other people take my statement and ask why do I still support ABC method or OTHER elements in the PUA is because again it is the development phase or growth phase. I believe Dialectic wrote a thread on it that explains it very well.
However, not to digress. Here is an opportunity for someone else to see the boot camp for what it is. Maybe it is sexist than by all means write it about and Will and I will shut the fuck up or perhaps it is not or maybe it is somewhere in the middle.
This maybe a chance to have open communication.
About your offer about being a women? I think I know where you are going with this one. I have an older sister and I had a cousin who came to America for one summer. I also have a new girl friend.
You know what they all tell me that as a man I never experience. They get approach almost all the time and get sexual advances. They get annoyed or scared by it. They get sick of the constant stares or the sexual comments. Add to that the occasion racial sexual remarks it can get scary for them. I imagine you probably experience that and hate it.
My girl friend told me that she would get constantly approach by creepy guys. White guys, latin guys ,black guys and sometimes Asian guys. How is it that I was able to get her because I ALSO approach her. I didn’t use her or sexual objectify her. I approach her the right way.
I actually want someone else to go because I want to know there feed back of how to improve it or maybe it is sexist and we are all full of shit but the only way to know for sure is to observe it and the real reason is to have open communication instead of just a flame war.
Makulita
6:13 pm | Sep 25, 2008evil_FUX…
…Tha back o’ yo’ head is riddikkulus!
Malor
8:48 pm | Sep 25, 2008This is a terrible set up. The ladies are all defensive. Behind the anonymity of the internet, we don’t even see each other as human.
Isn’t the lessons of PUA to make women see men as people, not as predators? However, William is like a broken record trying to sell his ABC bootcamp. You’re breaking your own rule, coming off as “creepy, needy”.
This isn’t helping Asian Americans, more like splitting them apart. Men should seek to improve themselves. But, putting too much emphasis on sex isn’t a healthy approach.
How important is it? Does it really bother us so much, the possibility that men of other races have more sex with more women?
Xian
9:29 pm | Sep 25, 2008Xian, on what basis do you imply that my intentions in activism would be anything other than to help others?
I didn’t/don’t imply or think that. My phrasing may have been bad. I was merely responding to your own words:
Prior to that, all of the activism activities that I did (organizing protest rallies, letter writing campaigns, and using my personal savings in order to finance various activism initiatives started by others) came from a place of insecurity.
Obviously, we can both have different experiences and neither is wrong–both are real. I’m just saying that once I was a true activist and cease to be on the hunt, it was insanely easy to find people to date.
tokyolovestory
9:47 pm | Sep 25, 2008Heyyu & groinpull,
I’m glad to hear it. I think you two are going to be all the takers I can handle at the moment. However, two is a good number because I can’t really guarantee you lesbian sex but, with two of you, you can guarantee each other lesbian sex. Of course, you would each be responsible for any non-heterosexual action you may want to engage in. Please keep in mind that most nights (during the week) and every weekend, you will be going out to clubs to engage men.
So far, I have found a plastic surgeon who apparently is able to perform gender reassignment surgery in La Jolla by the name of Dr. Tom Pousti. If you like, you can look up other names to give yourselves some peace of mind.
I have school Mondays through Thursdays, but I’m done in the afternoon, so if your flight arrives in San Diego after, say, 4PM, I’ll be just fine to come and pick you up. Please PM me with your itineraries so I can arrange for accommodations and so forth. Also, don’t worry, I know two women who are currently nurses (one of whom was an E.R. nurse) so aftercare will be competent and personal.
I hope you make arrangements to be accepted by your family and friends for the next three years as a woman. I’m not sure about the legalities and if you would need to change your gender on your birth certificate and so forth. I will look up that information and get back to you ASAP.
wlee815
11:24 pm | Sep 25, 2008Malor,
You mentioned that you think I’m “like a broken record trying to sell his ABC bootcamp.”
You’re wrong. I’m not selling anything; I’m trying to provide a way for a woman to actually see the real content of what is taught at the bootcamp so that she can make an informed, honest, and sincere opinion that is based on first hand experience.
You also said that I’m “breaking your own rule, coming off as “creepy, needy.” That’s not my intention, but based on the way that some responses (listed above) to my comments were phrased, I felt that certain aspects of what I was saying were not being addressed. I feel that I wouldn’t need to repeat anything if, when responding to my comments, I could be given as honest and sincere a response as I am providing.
-William
nskripchun
12:05 am | Sep 26, 2008Honestly, I don’t think a woman would be comfortable in the same room as the guys at the boot camp… you’d probably have to guarantee that she’d be behind a two-way mirror or watching via remote camera, somewhere safe.
I mean, yeah… what woman wants to be along in a room with a bunch of strangers, let alone men who admittedly awkward / impaired in their ability to interact with women?
dage
3:03 am | Sep 26, 2008Maybe she could dress up like a guy? And then write a book about it?
evil_FUX
5:59 am | Sep 26, 2008Makulita…
…So listen…Can I have yo’ numba? Can I have it? Can I have it? Can I please receive the secret code that if entered telephonically it will patch me through to you, which means it’ll be your beautiful ass numba? Can I have it? Can I? Can I?
nightshade
8:48 am | Sep 26, 2008So really, what I’ve learned from this thread is:
“Can I haz lesbian sex?”
Xian
4:06 pm | Sep 26, 2008I don’t understand the fascination with lesbian sex.
Malor
5:36 pm | Sep 26, 2008Cherry chapstick?
nightshade
2:38 pm | Sep 27, 2008Now I have that terrible song stuck in my head.
King4aDay
2:59 pm | Sep 27, 2008wlee815, I think that your offer is an honest one, and I can see the point that you’re trying to make by having people actually observe your workshop before making a judgement. The fact that you’re willing to do this demonstrates to me that, at the very least, you yourself believe in what you are doing. But also, it demonstrates a certain naivete as to how a woman might respond to such an offer.
You are asking a woman whom you have never met to simply get on a plane to New York in order to check out your male bootcamp that teaches guys how to more effectively pick up women. YOU are paying for her airline ticket and YOU will pay for her hotel room while she is in town.
Does it occur to you that that’s an awful lot of faith to put in a guy who she’s just met on the internet. ESPECIALLY if you’re a woman?
Then, she’s going to be alone in this bootcamp with all guys. I assume that again, YOU will be the one guaranteeing her safety? She may not even know anyone else in New York and there she is, at your request, and completely dependent on your good will.
Now, I don’t doubt that you would be honest and and the perfect gentleman, but you are asking this as if it would be no problem at all for a woman, and that trusting some male internet contact should come as naturally to her as the spring rain in April.
What worries me slightly is that this awkward offer is being extended by the very fellow who is teaching the course on how to better understand women! I may be wrong, but the way that you have couched this “offer of proof” demonstrates to me a very fundamental misunderstanding of how women are likely to react to certain male advances. Is it possible that some of your other methodologies are equally flawed?
aznbro
12:07 pm | Sep 28, 2008To the 44 ladies here, I’m curious to know whether you feel that the 25 y.o.+ (I’m making an assumption about the demographics here)graduate from wlee’s PUA boot-camp could become a personal threat (physically, emotionally or otherwise). How likely do you feel it is that an adult, who is awkward with women to begin with, become eventually transformed into an “insightful”, manulative and insensitive predatory-dater by taking a weekend course? Is the objection more from a philosophical standpoint or practical?
To be honest, I haven’t been following the PUA topics much and I initially read this out of curiosity as to why this topic have so much leg. I don’t think I identify with this PUA stuff too well but even then, it’s just not so obvious to me that the results might not be positive overall when you take into account where the students are coming from and the actual intent of the teachers. We talk about activisim so I don’t see the harm in trying (unless there are obvious very negative consequences of course). I don’t want to offend anyone. Just offering my 2 cents.
Xian
12:43 pm | Sep 28, 2008King, the offer is not for the benefit of women. It strikes me at the typical male preening and posing that goes on. “What do you mean, I staked $500 of my own money on my point and all of the women in the world were too chickenshit to take me up on the offer…”
nightshade
11:03 pm | Sep 28, 2008LOL, I’ve been in New York for the last month and still haven’t been able to do all the things and see all the people I was hoping to see. There would be NO WAY that I would waste three days in New York for PUA lectures.
I wish you well in your endeavors, wlee, but your logic regarding how some of women feel about PUA and your offer are just thinly veiled attempts to promote your business. All the power to you, but you really need to stop trying to invalidate the feelings of the chick posters who are not jiving with your beliefs but don’t want to show up for a bootcamp.
I do believe that you offer a service that is valuable to some men–but I also believe that the women have a right to be skeeved out by some of the language of PUA.
*
Finally, can we be clear that rape is not sex? It is violence.
evil_FUX
3:48 am | Sep 29, 2008I disagree with a part of your statement nightshade.
nightshade
12:43 pm | Sep 29, 2008Does this mean we have to have a fistfight, E?
evil_FUX
2:47 pm | Sep 29, 2008Yes, bring your handycam and hop your ass on a flight down here.
nightshade
3:28 pm | Sep 29, 2008Will you be paying for my flight and hostel, E?
evil_FUX
3:48 pm | Sep 29, 2008Well in order for that to happen you must fulfill these requirements:
1) You are female.
2) You honestly believe that fighting me will prove that the part of your statement in dispute is true or some similar permutation (half-truth, conditional truth, etc.).
nightshade
12:47 am | Sep 30, 2008So, shall I initiate this by slapping you on the cheek with a mitten?
wlee815
1:29 pm | Sep 30, 2008Nightshade said:
“I do believe that you offer a service that is valuable to some men–but I also believe that the women have a right to be skeeved out by some of the language of PUA.”
This is actually the first honest opinion I’ve heard so far, and I actually agree with you that the marketing materials on many PUA websites, including the ABCs Of Attraction, is “skeevy”.
That aside, you can say that I’m promoting myself, you can say that you have doubts as to your personal safety, and you can say that I have insincere intentions in my offer. Unfortunately, you would be completely wrong about all of those.
In any case, the offer still stands, and if you’d like to make a judgement about what I teach based on an actual knowledge of the contents of the lessons, rather than simply saying that I “encourage men to harm women” without really knowing what I do, here’s your chance.
-William
nightshade
1:36 pm | Sep 30, 2008Oh, for fuck’s sake. I never said anything as simplistic as I have doubts about my personal safety or that you have insincere intentions or that you’re encouraging men to harm women. Learn how to read, asshole.
You’re trying to make this into an argument that can be won or lost, and I wasn’t intending to do that to you.
But seriously, you’re trying my patience with your retardation and your assumptions. So here it is, honestly: FUCK OFF.
wlee815
4:56 pm | Sep 30, 2008Nightshade,
My bad, I see that I used the wrong pronoun in the second part of my post. When I said:
—
That aside, you can say that I’m promoting myself, you can say that you have doubts as to your personal safety, and you can say that I have insincere intentions in my offer. Unfortunately, you would be completely wrong about all of those.
—
The ‘you’ here wasn’t referring to you, Nightshade, I was actually referring to ‘you other commenters on this post.’ Sorry about that. Those three things that I referred to which were written by ‘you other commenters on this post’ were written by people OTHER THAN Nightshade. That’s a small typographical error on my part.
-William
wlee815
3:37 pm | Oct 14, 2008To the ladies of the fighting 44’s,
Jaehwan pointed out one critical thing that I misunderstood from the very beginning with this post– the part where Dialectic stated: “That as a result, PUA-ism in general is bad, because it ultimately encourages men to hurt women by “dehumanizing” (objectifying) them in mens’ eyes.” I mis-interpreted to mean that some woman(women) actually made such a statement, when in fact, no one has done this.
Furthermore, in my original post, I said, “2) You honestly believe that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraction “encourages men to hurt women,” or some similar permutation of that statement (hurt, lie, manipulate, etc.).” I for some reason thought that malikulita was responding to me as if she did honestly believe that the curriculum in the ABCs of Attraction “encourages men to hurt women,” when really, while looking back at the posts, I realize that I made an incorrect assumption here. I was wrong about that.
-William