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1. [...] Spanish Slant-Eyeby Dialectic | Aug 22, 2008 [...]

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17 Responses

#1

Xian

11:34 am | Aug 22, 2008

Personally, I could give a shit about the actual action. It’s the fact that when people tried to do what you suggest–a good suggestion–that they went into full, “no your perspective is wrong, and you need to take our joke in the spirit it was intended” and did it a bunch more times.

You can plead ignorance once, and after that, you are being an inflammatory asshole.

#2

Dialectic

11:42 am | Aug 22, 2008

I know about their response. Here, simply, is what happens in a lot of these types of cases:

P1: [Does some fuzzily offensive thing]
P2: You’re *ist! Apologize for your *ism!
P1: [Taken aback because they completely lacked *ist intention.] What? No! Stop calling us *ist! We didn’t mean anything bad! Fucking relax!

It’s somewhat expected, particularly in this polarized speak-first, reflect-later media environment we’ve built around *ist discourse.

I also admit it’s because I’m older now (and have been watching a lot of The Wire and Generation Kill), and see that a lot of this fuzzy bullshit really doesn’t matter and isn’t worth engaging in.

#3

Xian

12:02 pm | Aug 22, 2008

I don’t disagree, but I’d argue that “we” didn’t build this environment. Institutional racism demands that the mechanisms we have to address ignorance are polarized and ineffectual.

#4

Dialectic

12:21 pm | Aug 22, 2008

Well, this gets into what the “we” is, and the what whole slate of options and mechanisms we have consists of.

I think we have a choice on how polarizing we want to be. You can be adversarial and still respectful and reasonable. I’m talking here primarily about tone, and particularly about American-style advocacy. It’s just so accusatory, and the words “sexist,” “racist,” “homophobic” have become so ubiquitous they’ve lost credibility with a lot of people, and they’ve become lazy insults and replacements for rational dialogue. They’re also the equivalent of calling someone an evil asshole; nobody responds well to being called *ist (or *ic). I think even you were accused of sexism at one what by the Reappropriate person, weren’t you? That’s the biggest bullshit I’ve ever heard.

This is why I’ve always shied away from using these labels. I find it interesting that so many people who are dead-set against being labeled or stereotyped find it so easy to throw these things on other people, and then become indignant when these “Others” (seems like everyone has an “Other”!) don’t respond with humility and compassion.

#5

RebelAzn

1:42 pm | Aug 22, 2008

As with anything, I think it is the intention not the motion. These people are certainly ignorant of the fact that these gestures are offensive to Asians living in the West. People in China aren’t expose to this so naturally they don’t find it offensive.

I don’t think their original intention was to offend, so if they acknowledge it then its fine. Now if they same idiots do this again in the media then it will be offensive.

#6

howstrange

5:45 pm | Aug 22, 2008

My first reaction was that it was just cultural misunderstanding and harmless. Then I started looking into Spanish sports and have seen pretty damn blatantly racist things going on. Spanish soccer fans and players, the biggest sport in Spain, has a track record of being racist towards black soccer players.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901060403-1176955,00.html

#7

howstrange

5:47 pm | Aug 22, 2008

not just soccer in spain, even formula one: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1709912,00.html

I’m sure if I dig deeper I can find a whole lot more.

#8

howstrange

6:03 pm | Aug 22, 2008

“There’s no strong historical/ colonial relationship between East Asians and blacks, and it’s a purely visual reference: that teeth look whiter next to dark skin. Even after the name-change, they still kept the image, because the Asians aren’t really being “racist.”)”

by they way, there is a long history of colonialization between Spain and Asia. This may or may not play a part in whether or not this was racist mokery of just an attempt at affection, but historically, Spanish colonialism has had a tremendous impact on millions of people on this planet.

#9

howstrange

3:19 am | Aug 23, 2008

Okay looking back at what I wrote above, a debate on whether or not Spain was racist or not misses the whole gist of the article and what Dialectic is saying. I totally and whole heartily agree with everything.

#10

minorTruths

8:03 am | Aug 23, 2008

Dialectic, you referenced Frank Wu’s article (that’s right, the Frank Wu yo) as an example of zealous racial oversensitivity in action, but you totally disregarded all the points he made in the article. With all due respect, I think you are oversimplifying the analysis a bit here. You also say that you shy away from using labels, but the way you ascribed the negative reactions to “Asian Americans and “white liberals” sounds pretty presumptuous don’t you think. Perhaps, it wasn’t your intent, but it almost sounds as if you are implying that people’s negative reactions to the photos and everything related to the photos were because they fit under one nice label or another and NOT because those reactions were born out of any sound logic or rationalization. Though I am not a liberal, the way you have used it makes it sound like such a dirty word.

Furthermore, there is a full spectrum of ‘negative’ reactions. Not everyone’s ‘negative’ reactions were the same. The reactions ranged anywhere from visceral angered condemnation and accusations on one end to intelligent rationalization and recognition of the many social and global variables at play on the other. I think it’s crucial to point out that many media outlets and individuals have called the actions of the Spanish federation and basketball teams (men and women and let’s not forget the Spanish women’s tennis team photo that was not taken as part of any campaign ad) ignorant, culturally insensitive, and even racist without directly launching any personal attacks to call the players themselves racists.

So if due to human nature, it was “somewhat expected” that the Spanish basketball players and officials would react in a defensive, defiant, and arrogant manner when called out by some in the public as racist, small minded, Neanderthaloid, hate mongering brutes, then why would it not be at least somewhat expected that Spain would react in kind with humility and compassion to those in the public who have only pointed out the actions and photos as representing ignorance and have explained to great lengths why the photos are intrinsically offensive or have the potential to be offensive?

Human reasoning and growth is a beautiful thing. Hypothetically, let’s say that my performance or actions at work were evaluated by 10 people; some are colleagues and some hold higher authoritative positions. Let’s say that 5 of the people literally said that I was an incompetent, dumb, piece of shit while the other 5 said that I was showing continued improvement, but needed to do A, B, and C to be at a certain standard. Do I dismiss all 10 criticisms and claim myself perfectly intelligent and if anyone who can’t see the beauty of my genius is wrong and just don’t understand what they are talking about let alone know how to appreciate my genius work? At first, maybe…but then I would have to soon reexamine the situation and ultimately reexamine myself…not because I think I am a stupid person but because I need to reconcile these criticisms and understand where they come from and perhaps to even grow a little bit.

I would expect Spain as individual players and as an entity as in the FEB to go through a similar process regardless of whether China’s government and Li Ning has condone their actions or not. This was an ad for the Olympics. It’s on the world stage. So forgive me for thinking that the rest of the world’s opinions matter at all in this. But Spain has not gone through such a process. There have been a lot of things written in the press about Spain threatening legal action for libel and slander, going after the British journalist who first broke the news, and lashing back at ‘Western’ media though the photos have been reported and criticized in other parts of the world as well. This could indicate Spain’s poor public relations skills or it could say that Spain’s is unnecessarily being a big bag of douche. I don’t know…it’s pretty subjective and hard to tell.

On cultural and historical context: I believe the meaning of pulling your eyes back as a taunting and derisive racial gesture is universally recognized if not experienced by most Asians who make their homes outside of predominately Asian populated countries. It is not just a North American phenomenon. It is not as if North America had some trademark protection on such an incredibly creative, insulting racist gesture that no one else in the world could ever conceive of. I believe Asians living in Spain, Argentina, Latin America, England, other places in Europe are cognizant of the racist and condescending connotations of such a gesture. More context: As many have already pointed out, Spain’s sports from Formula 1 racing to their soccer leagues have been mired in multiple racist incidents over the years. Spain has also had a long and extensive history of colonialism all around the world including Asian territories, most notably the Philippines.

But let’s for a moment forget all the historical contextual speak. Let’s for a moment consider the act of taking the photograph itself. The Spaniards individually, collectively, and in coordinated efforts with Li Ning (hmmm?) say it was meant to be affectionate and was meant as a way to show respect to ‘the Chineses and the East’. Really, that would be the best possible way to accomplish this? Let’s flip the script for one minute. If Asians from country X or any ethnic/racial group for that matter wanted to show respect and endearment for another group of people, would it make any sense to go the Spaniards’ route of ‘mimicking’ physical traits to show such respect and love? Would one paint one’s face black and push out one’s lips to show respect to blacks? Would one don guerilla suits (representing hairiness) to show affection and respect to the Spaniards? And when Italians take offense or at most find it stupid, would one turn around and say it is to show great respect and endearment to hairy Europeans? Would one wear large, aquiline prosthetic noses to show respect to whites? No, I do not think that makes any kind of sense nor does it easily convey any kind of respect or affection. The notion of making these gestures to show respect and endearment is just so ridiculous; it’s hard for anyone to justify it. http://disgrasian.blogspot.com/2008/08/spanish-basketball-team-on-oriental.html

But for a moment, let’s do put our cognitive dissonance aside. Although what they did clearly makes little sense, let’s do accept them at their word for one minute. Now in order for me to accept their explanation and believe in it, I must also accept their stupidity and believe in it. Forget what their intentions were and whether they are ignorant of the historical context of making said gesture. As explained above, just making the gesture for the reasons the Spanish gave is plain stupid. Accepting them at their word just causes more cognitive dissonance. So when people react to the actions and words of the Spaniards in its totality, they cannot react in any other way but negatively. So maybe the Spanish basketball team and national federation are not racists but just really stupid. Nonetheless, stupidity and inconsistency needs to be called out.

I shifted between different thoughts and emotions on the subject. Throughout this process, the benefit of the doubt was given and then lost. But the more the Spaniards’ spoke in defense of their actions, the dumber they sound, and the more credibility they lost with me. Yes, yes there are bigger issues to deal with in this world…but eh. *shrugs*

On a side note in regards to the Darkie toothpaste, I just read up on it on Wikipedia. And I know that Wikipedia should not be the official source of any information. But anyways, the term darkie or darky itself is an offensive term as stated so in most dictionaries. As I understand it, the original toothpaste featured the logo picture of a caricatured black man smiling in a top hat. The image is said to have been inspired by Al Jolson, a blackface performer. This image has been replaced by a modern logo of a black man wearing a top hat that is less caricaturized, stereotypical, and offensive. I’m still fuzzy on some of the facts regarding the toothpaste, but the whole idea of white teeth against black skin marketing for a toothpaste sounds pretty stupid to me. And I do think the toothpaste or at least the original version of it was racist whether the Asian masses understand this or not.

#12

Dialectic

1:11 am | Aug 24, 2008

Thanks for your comment, mt, some brief responses:

I read Wu’s article, and it was not my intention to make a point-by-point rebuttal, and I won’t do so now. This wasn’t meant to be a full-fledged Feature essay with an exploration of the philosophical, moral, and political implications of the gesture. I was just saying, “it’s not that bad, you can say your piece in a reasonable way, and let it go.”

Wu brings up decent points, and I could go into a massive discussion of social trends, the rise of subjectivity in intellectual and political discourse, its effects on rights and freedoms and what constitutes knowledge, but I have in the past, and that’s a discussion for another day.

Ultimately, I think politically-correct speech and sensitivity have run their course in terms of usefulness, and it’s time to swing the pendulum back the other way, which I think is happening. People are getting sick of essentially being called evil while lacking evil intent.

The inability to express the slightest negatively-perceived thing about a group is hurting everyone’s understanding of what race and stereotypes are, and it’s become more accusatory, political-strategic, and emotional, as opposed to being sensitive, rational good-faith discourse.

I didn’t say I shy away from using labels; I said I shy away from using “these labels,” referring to the negative and accusatory *ist and *ic terms above. I use labels all the time, because that’s the only way we can speak generally.

And nope, it wasn’t my intention to ascribe any negative association with the word “liberal,” and I don’t think I did, other than to imply I disagree with a liberal accusation of racism. I was just saying that it was “liberals” who were offended, as we currently use the term. And I have no problem using labels like “liberal” or “conservative” as a short-hand in discussion where I think it’s appropriate.

I know people can have different “negative” reactions; I never said or implied they can’t. I was just talking about the “racist” accusation. As for why Spain would respond belligerently, I think it’s perfectly understandable. Their racial discourse is not as sensitive as ours, and they have no strong historical relationship with the Chinese. (Howstrange, about your post #8, as far as I know, Spain and Japan/Chinese/Korea don’t have nearly the same history as, say, continental Europe and blacks, native Americans, or Australian Aborigines, or Britain and China, or America and Japan, or a bunch of other combinations which I’m sure you can think of.)

Also, mt, you and Xian have gone into a separate argument here. We’re not discussing the direct racism anymore, we’re talking about the insensitivity of the response. Well, they may have been insensitive, but as I say, they weren’t prepared for the onslaught they received (it’s easy to forget that North American racial discourse is way, way more sensitive and developed than it is elsewhere), and they have indeed apologized.

Again, your assumption of some racial-message-vetting process has a strong North American (or if we include the U.K., Anglo Saxon) bias. It wasn’t a big deal to them. They thought it was cute.

I know Spain was a colonial power; I’ve been to a lot of places in continental Europe, I’ve seen that they don’t know shit about multiculturalism, and I’ve stated many times that Europe is not as racially-sensitive as we are. I get it; I’m just saying, this isn’t like throwing bananas at a black soccer player, this isn’t like rioting in Chinatown, this isn’t like pushing Asian fishermen into the lake, this isn’t like beating an Asian to death. This is just some bullshit from people who thought they were showing sassy love.

Your rhetorical examples are not analogous. I won’t address them individually. The equivalent would be a bunch of Asians “widening” their eyes and smiling for a shot. And that ain’t so bad.

I have no cognitive disssonance, and their initial gesture, along with their reaction, make perfect sense. I’d be indignant too, if I were going to China to play basketball with sponsorship from a Chinese firm, and people start telling me that I’m racist, or, “what I did was racist.” Are you kidding me? I would go out of my way to fuck with people who are about to be my hosts, and who support my efforts? The Spanish reactions may not make sense to a heavily socially-sensitized, well-educated, middle-class American minority. But they make sense.

I don’t find their words/actions to be “inconsistent.” The basketball team was only “stupid” insofar as they were ignorant of immigrant East Asian experiences and sensitivities, as accepted and legitimized by a thoroughly developed Anglo Saxon approach to multiculturalism and social sensitivity. I don’t find that to be unreasonable.

I know the original Darkie illustration was different; when I say they “kept the image,” I mean that it portrays pretty much the same thing, only less “harshly.” I should’ve been clearer with that phrase.

Anyway, your reaction to this incident, and your opinion on the toothpaste goes into a discussion of just what “racism” is. Basically, our current understanding of racism, and the one you accept, is that it can be wholly divorced from the intent of the creator, the immediate cultural context, and a statement, thought, deed, or abstraction can be racist without necessarily reflecting on the creator (i.e. the creator doesn’t necessarily have to be racist even if the creation is).

This is all fine, and I understand the justifications for it; it does, however, lead into really messy and fuzzy areas, because now, you have the potential for a “racist” (or sexist or whatever) thing without intent, understanding, or even the immediate involvement of an offended party (Also, is it really possible to a call statement racist and not be calling the person racist? I’m skeptical.)

All these *isms, then, run the risk of becoming purely subjective things; as long as someone stands up and says she’s offended, then the gesture is offensive, and we better shut the fuck up.

This is not acceptable or functional. There has to be, as they say in law, a standard of “reasonableness,” an inter-subjectively created threshold of what is “offensive,” below which you just let it go. Sometimes, you have to give people a break.

I’m saying right now, in certain influential circles, the threshold is too goddamn low, and while it served a purpose, and sensitized us, it’s now hurting us, and has to be raised a bit. It has, ironically, given more power to racial slurs and racists, in that every little possibly-offensive thing gets blown up to nigh-epic proportions and becomes the center of a circus. I’m not saying just ignore racist stuff and turn the other cheek; I’m just saying get some damn perspective.

(On an integral sidenote, Howstrange, this is, once again, a prime example of massive efficiency-loss at green. Its subjective, inclusive, address-all, marginalize-none, analyze-and-dissect-and-analyze approach yields huge dissertations on a myriad of subjects which are essentially bullshit. Note that posts #11 and #12 are far longer than the original article, and dissect to a very deep degree what is essentially a value-emotional position.)

#13

Xian

6:25 am | Aug 24, 2008

I thought the Spanish olympic team has members who live and work in America and are immersed in American discourse.

#14

nottyboy

9:21 am | Aug 25, 2008

I think they did this out of ignorance, rather than racism. I know that back home people will think nothing of pulling their eyelids to describe how they think Asian people look, and I know there’s not any malice behind it.

I don’t know about Pau Gasol, because I have no idea what race discourse is like out there in LA. Here in liberal Boston you don’t find much discussion regarding racism unless it’s about black & white relations. Most of the things I’ve learned about racism against Asians comes from reading MM.com and this site.

I understand how it can make someone defensive if they’re attacked, but I think that in this case they should have apologized.

#15

SamuraiJack

8:58 pm | Aug 25, 2008

I don’t think the Spanish team was being consciously racist, but I do believe they are sub-consciously racist.

It may not have been their intent to be racist, but by doing the “Chinese eyes”, they are implying that Chinese are identified as being “slit-eyed” - which of course, they are not (you can have big eyes and still be Chinese or Asian). It’s also identifying the Chinese by race - Asian eyes are not unique to China.

Also, it may also suggest that Asians are abnormal - their eyes deviate from what is normal. By using your fingers to manipulate your own features abnormally usually (always?) denotes something negative.

#16

minorTruths

12:08 pm | Aug 27, 2008

D, thanks for detailing out your position and indulging me in essay style responses. I think I understand where you are coming from much better now. But that’s not to say that I necessarily agree with you on certain points. I guess the question narrows down to where you want to set that threshold. I’ll just leave it at that.

#17

Dialectic

10:45 pm | Aug 30, 2008

Thanks for your responses, guys. Part of my value or threshold position comes as a result of some professional and personal experience, a particular type of philosophical approach, and age. I’m pushing 30 now, have been thinking about this stuff for a long time, at least as a portion of my life. As Zen monks like to say (and I was a student and regular practitioner for a while, and will return in the future), “Do not waste time!” There are things in the world to take seriously, and things not so much, because we only have so much time and energy before we’re gone forever (even if you reincarnate, you’re not the same dude =P).

And when you start to consciously and formally understand how people mature and develop, you tend to cut people a little more slack, because you realize that everyone goes through similar phases: egocentric, ethnocentric, worldcentric (if you’re fortunate). It’s like how parents need a lot of patience and tolerance when dealing with little kids and teenagers: sharply criticizing them, threatening them, or being offended by them for every thing they do wrong from an “adult” perspective is not productive or healthy for anyone.

Also, in my mind, the big issues at play which we can effectively manipulate ultimately come down to economic and political might. We’re all better served by spending as little time and emotional energy as possible on this stuff and working to generate wealth and influence on a policy-making level. A lot of rights and social justice comes from just increasing numbers: get more Asians in here, and get them more money. Peoples’ minds are not in our hands (they’re not even in their own hands): money and laws are.

Finally, I’ve been on the receiving end of this crap; it was unjustified, and it really, really sucks, especially when people try to destroy you over some misinterpreted words. People who consider themselves the most “empathetic” are sometimes the least, especially when they find a “demon” to fight.