Sexual Politics and the “Better Asian Man”
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Do we need a Better Asian Man?
Much of Asian American political or “empowerment” discussion centers around sexuality: the “interracial” imbalance, the emasculation of males, the sexualization of females, and the distortive effects of this dehumanization on self-esteem and self-identity.
Human growth or development is a modular affair: people “mature” along different lines or different modules of expertise at different rates: one can be, for example, very intellectual, or cognitively developed, moderately moral, somewhat social, and sexually immature.
I believe that Asian American males as a population have been somewhat “stunted” in their sexual development as a result of the dehumanization and self-esteem/identity issues I referred to above (which are caused by a complex interaction of factors, both internal and external). This has given AAMs, generally, an “imbalanced” psycho-social profile: high cognitive, widely varying moral, somewhat stunted interpersonal, stunted sexual. (Remember, I’m speaking about the population generally; individuals don’t necessarily reflect this at all.)
If this is true (and from personal observation and reading what little literature there is on the subject, I believe it is), then a necessary aspect of “empowerment” would be to find some way to help “balance” the developmental growth of the population and help ourselves to fully mature. (This applies to females as well, though their growth has been distorted in a different way; whereas Asian American males are sort of the ultimate asexual, socially undesirable, productive objects in Western society, females are the ultimate sexual and desired objects.)
“Empowerment” is generally understood to be political - to “empower” a people to achieve political and economic autonomy and be permitted, in a significant way, to self-define (there is evidence, here, of a Western, and particularly American, bias toward hyper-autonomy, or the classical liberal myth of the wholly autonomous individual, which is impossible, and at any rate undesirable and destructive, but I digress). What is less understood is that “political” generally includes, well, everything: all aspects of human existence are informed by politics, and all aspects of what we are inform our politics.
In this sense, “empowerment” certainly includes “sexual empowerment” with an eye to becoming a better, more confident, more passionate, more complete, and more loving person. No one could reasonably object to this.
There has been some concern, however, that the conscious “sexual empowerment” of AA males will further the oppression, or “depowering” of AA females, or females in general, given the objectifying “males on the hunt” mentality that “pick-up lessons” can produce.
It’s important to remember one thing here: in development, in growth and maturity, the more “grown-up” you are, the more good you can do, and the more dangerous you can be. If you’re quite intelligent, it’s obvious how you can use that intelligence to further your own ends and help other people, or focus selfishly on your own needs at other peoples’ expense. If you’re very charismatic, it is well within your ability to help people achieve their goals, or manipulate the unsuspecting. And because the “moral” line exists somewhat independently from the others, just because you’re really good at something, doesn’t mean you’re good.
The more developed you are, the greater your capacity for compassion, and the greater your capacity to harm: pathological possibilities increase with growth, and the consequences of objectifying others (and ourselves) become more dangerous with more development. An infant, for example, is one of the most selfish and objectifying beings on the planet: everyone and everything exists in her world to fulfill her needs, and she throws a tantrum when she is the least bit uncomfortable and things don’t go her way, regardless of anyone else’s feelings or dignity. We find this adorable for evolutionary reasons, and because she is harmless and needs us to live; if an adult lived in such a narcissistic and objectifying manner, we would consider him a dangerous sociopath.
So do we stop infants from growing up to avoid this possibility of sickness or stunting? No. The proper response is not to inhibit or stunt growth, but to see that it occurs in a healthy and compassionate way: we want people to be as smart, and charismatic, and confident, and sexually fulfilled as they can be, but we also want them to be good people, and to be good to other people. In fact, it’s a reciprocal relationship; our best chance of getting good people is to see that they are smart, charismatic, confident, and sexually fulfilled.
So yes, we do need a Better Asian Man, we need a whole hell of a lot of them, and anyone who can help us achieve that with a view to goodness, and culture, and politics, is someone worth having around.
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kalbi
2:08 pm | Aug 18, 2008D,
I’m in complete agreement. As you know I almost always have something to say to most things, but I couldn’t have said anything more or better in this case. Thank you so much for writing this.
- K.
nightshade
2:31 pm | Aug 18, 2008Thanks, D. You’re spot on and compassionate as usual.
SoulSnax
11:26 am | Aug 19, 2008It is indeed reciprocal, and as I’ve read on the BAM site, “If you want the woman of your dreams, you have to be the man of hers.” I hope William’s audience takes that to heart. Sexual empowerment and achieving a “full romantic connection” isn’t about giving or receiving, it’s about SHARING, with other human beings.
RebelAzn
6:18 pm | Aug 19, 2008Very well written Dialectic. You really should publish your own book. Great piece of work.
howstrange
1:46 am | Aug 20, 2008I understand the need for personal and healthy human growth. On the individual basis websites like betterasianman are helpful. However, sites like that can clash with already healthily developed people who still care about issues of sexual identity and growth, but believe so by means that don’t re-enforce the existing boundaries between AM and AF. It’s the whole pre-trans fallacy at play. There we have heavy ego driven Asian Men who really only care about fucking white women and often shit on AFs, they don‘t really care about any sort of big picture. Because of the IR imbalance, many tend to let that shit slide. But I’m guessing from an AF perspective, especially those that stand by us Asian Men, the hypocritical shit cuts deep.
I think the future of sexual development of the Average AM and AF in this country will not depend on a few scattered online PUA classes or support websites. It depends on the lower right structures that have always been the strongest influence for growth of the upper left and lower left. The LR structures of population density and distribution, or the complexity of mass media(the means of cultural conformity) will be what really impacts the healthy sexual growth of the community at large. I just came back from a yogurt shop in a heavily populated Asian community in Socal. You should see all the young AA youths, both male an female healthily interacting and enjoying normal relationships with each other, They’re probably oblivious to any of the shit we’re talking about. It’s a beautiful thing and I must admit I’m envious of that, something I didn’t have growing up. The way I see it, websites like betterasianman are for the early fucked up generations, like mine, spawned by the first large waves of Asian immigration into North America. The AA youth today is looking pretty damn robust. You want a better future, start having lots of Asian kids to increase the size and influence of our community. Send them to schools in predominately Asian communities, teach them respect, teach them ambition.
howstrange
2:11 am | Aug 20, 2008well, let me clarify something. I’m not against websites like betterasianman existing. I’m more in agreement with Jaehwan’s opinion that there are Hi-brow versus low-brow approaches in sexual politics. Seriously, I read like two posts on betterasianman and nearly vomited in my mouth, they sounded like viagra infomericals. Good for some people, but not the a prescription for everyone.
tokyolovestory
2:52 am | Aug 20, 2008D
I agree about all the things that we, as a community, and Asian men, specifically, currently need. But is “what we need” PUA in general or even betterasianman in particular? I honestly don’t think so. That, however, is just my opinion. I just feel that there have got to be better ways to go about it.
tokyolovestory
2:53 am | Aug 20, 2008Oh and howstrange:
But I’m guessing from an AF perspective, especially those that stand by us Asian Men, the hypocritical shit cuts deep.
Thank you.
kwak76
3:49 am | Aug 20, 2008Most of the poster here prefer a high brow approach than a low brow approach. Which I do agree with because a high brow approach will actually have a main stream support with out offending woman.
However, as of now I don’t see a high brow approach and well it seems like no one else is coming up with a high brow approach solution but I also think it’s part of development.
For example let me use Will site betterasianman.com If you compare his site to Asianplayboy you will see some development there. Granted not everyone will agree that there is development but the tone of the message is package differently.
I know some people will say the message maybe the same but the way it is express is tone down more with more respect. I imagine as time goes by as people who took PUA will hopefully mature and realize that there is growth that has to happen.
The way I look at it is that I think for some of us we will go through the low brow approach but will eventually graduate to the high brow.
behindtheyellowcurtain
5:25 am | Aug 20, 2008Dear F44:
I have been thinking about your posting a lot and in response to your question, I have to say Yes, we Need a Better Asian Man.
I am an Asian male in my early 30’s. I’m educated, extroverted and am blessed with “pretty boy” looks, the combination of which has brought me the good fortune of often being on the receiving end of interested women without needing to resort to strong-arm tactics. Most of these women have been Asian. And while my circumstances (i.e. growing up with a lot of Asian friends and living in cities with decent Asian populations) have no doubt impacted this fact, I cannot help the feeling that there is a glass ceiling between me and non-Asian women.
I considered that perhaps this thing I have felt is just me. This thing, a feeling I can only describe as a combination of insecurity and inferiority around non-Asian women. I figured it was something conjured up inside of me created through a long-suppressed memory of a long-time elementary school crush with little brown-haired Jeanine that went unrequited. For much of my life, I ignored such events, largely being satisfied with a consistent flow of compliments from girls about being “pretty good looking”. Except after a while, I started to notice that “pretty good looking” was followed by, “for an Asian guy/”
Lately, I have been thinking that I’m not alone. Like most Asian males in this country, I am well-attuned to the lack of Asian males being portrayed as leading alpha-men or sexual objects in Hollywood. Sure we have our traditional bad-ass martial art heroes but I have yet to come across alluring pictures of Jackie Chan or Jet Li on the cover of a lifestyle or teen magazine, not that I’ve been looking that hard. But has it really been 13 years since Russell Wong made it into People’s 50 Most Beautiful People? And wtf do I know this?
In fact, it has become crystal clear to me that I am indeed, not alone. A focus group of one is one thing. A discussion with amongst male friends is another. But this thing has cycles. There is something in this generation of young Asian males that is different from the previous. Perhaps it can be explained as a North American cultural gap having been created between the first generation Asian males and our parents or a perhaps our silence has reached a boiling point and we have reacted with a newfound sense of entitlement…an equal opportunity right to hold the spotlight as fairly as other male races have. In other words, we want to be just as universally sought over as Ashton Kutcher or Denzel Washington or Enrique Iglesias.
In my opinion, it has become even tougher to be an Asian Male these days when our counterparts, Asian Females have come unto their own. Mainstream media and porn categories aside, the popularity and desirability of Asian Females by all male races can be felt at the bars, in classified ads, on the Internet, walking down the street and everywhere else we seek out the opposite sex. I don’t have scientific proof but I can’t help but feel like we’re fishing in a more crowded pond than ever. A Caucasian colleague of mine explained to me once that “The Asian woman is the new trophy wife.” Which made me wonder, so what are we?
To have our sisters so desired, yet to be so undesired ourselves takes a toll on a man. I don’t care if you’re Asian, Black, Brown, White or Green. It sometimes feels like the game is rigged against us.
So it is with this sense of empathy that I applaud A Better Asian Man. After reading a few posts, I have to admit that it took awhile to suspend my disbelief that these PUA tactics and code words could be coming from Asian Males. As far as I’m concerned, we’re not prone to organize ourselves behind causes like this. But despite what one might call it – immature, vengeful or Ross Jeffries inspired – it is still a voice or a rallying cry…the very thing that our tribe could use more of.
Need is a strong word. So to elaborate on my preliminary answer, I believe that we do not necessarily Need a Better Asian man, but what we do Need is the spirit behind it.
My 2 Cents.
R
BTW, thanks for posting. This is the first I’ve come across your blog. You are a gifted writer. You write with equal passion and purpose. Please never stop doing your thing.
Dialectic
10:17 am | Aug 20, 2008First I’ll address howstrange:
Remember, in integral terms, that any meaningful approach to development has to be “all level, all quadrant, all line, all state, all type.” This means that when addressing any given population, we have to use a “multi-modal” approach, with available “treatment” or growth opportunities for different people at different stages of development. So remember, we would have different treatment modalities for egocentric, ethnocentric, rational, and pluralistic people (and we’ve seen pathological versions of all these on our site), we would have internal and external strategies, and we would account for multiple lines (intellectual, moral, sexual, interpersonal, kinesthetic, etc.), states (both inducing and addressing them), and types (male, female, introvert, extrovert, hetero, GLBT, etc.).
NO form of therapy would be able to address all these, would they? To address problems in a population as a whole, we would want a variety of therapeutic options available.
Also, you don’t treat a sick person the way you treat a healthy person: in fact, the way you treat a sick person would often make a healthy person sick, wouldn’t it?
Quite frankly, using Xian-style “be excellent,” “be yourself,” “be beautiful,” “develop meaningful long-term relationships” and other such “techniques” will not work for the majority of men who need some sort of guidance in the first place, the ones who have had their confidence and their ability to interact with both women and men damaged well into their 20s and 30s.
I wouldn’t say it’s a pre-trans fallacy, at least, not from anyone’s statements I’ve seen. No one can reasonably say a pure PUA program is anything particularly deep or enlightened; what we can say confidently is that it constitutes a form of “regression in service of further growth.” Remember, when someone’s developmental line is stunted relative to their other lines, we have to go back to where that line got messed up, and we have to help it grow again. A lot of these men, their psychosexual stunting can be traced back to basically the onset of puberty, where egocentric needs are prevalent and must be explored and fulfilled to facilitate further growth. Otherwise, recall that while we say the lines are “relatively independent,” that’s a short-hand for saying that they have their own growth trajectories but can affect one another, so a stunting in one can distort the whole structure (or “psychograph”).
Also remember, a lot of things are “hypocritical” without a developmental and richly contextual perspective. Look at pluralism and the current types of advocacy in general: we advocate for equality and freedom, two conflicting values, which generate a myriad of hypocrisies, some being “truly” hypocritical (”green”-style judging of everyone else without wanting to be judged; the performative contradiction of saying no one’s values are better, except mine), and some not “truly hypocritical,” from a contextual perspective (privileging some groups and giving them a leg up to try to make the workforce or the student body more reflective of the population, which looks really hypocritical from an individual discrimination and equality point of view).
No one ever said the future sexual development of the “average” AM or AF “depends” on PUA or support websites, and I certainly didn’t imply that anyone’s future would depend exclusively on these. I am saying that a “need” exists for a certain portion of the population (male, heterosexual, sexually/socially-stunted) because it can address that particular type of pathology, provided that the instructor/ support site holds certain cultural and political values in awareness.
Also, I generally agree with what you’re saying about lower-right structures; in fact, I’m going to go deeply into that in my “Evolution of Activism part II.” Briefly, I would say that ultimately, the most important forms of “advocacy” are (1)lobbying for increased immigration (large populations are key to increased rights and influence); (2)working to make money for AA individuals and business (money translates to power and influence), and (3)basically, marketing: developing strong AA media properties, movies, music, books, comics, and changing self/other perception.
Note that these are all “exterior” (right-side) solutions. On a macro-level, if we can implement these, then everything else, confidence, acceptance, rights, etc. follows.
Recall, however, that interiors and exteriors reciprocate, and that any genuine program for growth must be “all-quadrant,” and must address individuals and collectives. We must therefore, put forth interior-based solutions as well.
Again, I’m in general agreement with you. The kids in the large population centers are doing much better than they have ever historically done. They are probably healthier in general compared to their small-pop and historical counterparts, and they have a different level of needs. But what happens when there is no predominantly Asian community? What happens when they’re in a conservative and conformist environment? What sort of respect can they achieve when it isn’t exteriorly supported? What sorts of ambitions can they have when society WILL limit them in a significant way? No one is wholly autonomous or self-defining. “No man is an island.” It’s very difficult to raise someone right, to tell them to basically be awesome in what amounts to a hostile, or at least unsupportive social environment. And if that person becomes psychologically stunted, as a high portion would, then you need a way to address that. Remember, minority populations are generally less healthy populations, physically and mentally. We are, to an extent, dealing with people who have what we can consider a deficiency or disability.
I generally agree with all your positive points, but I think you’re forgetting about the multi-modal developmental perspective. What you’re pushing for will only work for a different portion of the population than the one PUA/AM sexuality sites are aiming to address. What we need is a myriad of options for different types of people, ones which keep overall healthy cultural and political visions in mind, but aren’t necessarily consistent with each other in their approaches (which they couldn’t be, given the different needs generated by the AQAL matrix of quadrants, levels, lines, states, and types).
Dialectic
10:22 am | Aug 20, 2008Howstrange’s second comment:
There are “high” and “low” approaches to everything. Speaking generally, sometimes you have to get low to get high. This is the “regression in service of growth” I referred to in my last post. If people can’t explore and fulfill their egocentric needs in a certain line, which all people, male and female, have, then they won’t be able to go further in that line, and that will distort the entire individual.
And remember, there is no prescription for everyone. That’s not the developmental approach. Prescriptions for everyone are either hopelessly broad and useless (be healthy, be amazing, be good!), or dangerous, because as you say, what will work for some people won’t work for all.
Dialectic
10:31 am | Aug 20, 2008Tokyolovestory’s first post:
I hope I’ve explained what I meant by “need” in my responses to howstrange.
What would be a “better way” to go about helping sexually stunted men? What specifics will you teach them to actually help them speak confidently with women, and with society in general? They have not experienced “the hunter” mentality which they need to experience to be healthy men. You need to be the hunter to drop the hunter.
Do you remember what the emperor says at the end of Hero? The progression of the warrior goes from “sword-in-hand” to “sword-in-heart” to “no-sword-in-hand-or-heart.”
Without “sword-in-heart” you can’t get to the mature “no-sword.” You’re permanently stuck with your sword in your hand ;)
(Female egocentric needs manifest differently, such that generally, there is no need for “the hunter” or “the sword.” Rather than emphasizing autonomy and achievement, female needs tend toward community, acceptance, and care. This is not to say, of course, that both sexes don’t experience both ends of this spectrum to various degrees.)
I suppose the “healthiest” version of this PUA stuff that I can think of is the fictitious “Hitch” and even he was exposed to criticism as an artificial phony. He concludes, at the end of the movie, that love is the most important thing, but recall, he and the King of Queens had to go through an arduous maturity to get there, and on a pragmatic note, without Hitch’s techniques, he and many of his clients would never have gotten there in the first place.
Dialectic
10:42 am | Aug 20, 2008Tokyolovestory’s second post:
I hope I’ve addressed this “hypocrisy” argument adequately in my response to howstrange.
Let me list a few other “hypocrisies” we seem to be fine with:
Making jokes about white people and not letting them make the same kinds of jokes about us.
Reserving spots in schools and companies for minorities.
Promoting minority cultural celebration days without some sort of official “white cultural” celebration day.
Creating scholarships for minorities.
Forcing religions and cultures to peacefully accept the existence of other religions and cultures.
These “hypocrisies” can only be resolved or properly understood with a deeper contextual understanding of structural inequality, pluralistic morality, and post-colonial dynamics. But without this understanding, all of these examples would be morally unacceptable.
Dialectic
10:54 am | Aug 20, 2008I also want to thank everyone for posting, particularly the new members, Soulsnax and Behindtheyellowcurtain. We appreciate your comments and support and hope you stick around and keep reading!
jaehwan
12:11 pm | Aug 20, 2008Awesome discussion, all!
D:
Oi, I was going to address this in my Asian Male-ism Part III section! I haven’t even completed II yet.
I was about to make another joke about PUAs who’ve always their sword-in-hand, but I’ll refrain. At a time like this, we need compassion.
On a serious note, and which I’ll also address further in future posts, I saw a program on TV that says unmarried guys who are stuck with sword-in-hand tend to die earlier. Such a trend doesn’t take place with women who never marry. So if the TV program is right, it means that non-marriage tends to manifest itself differently in men and women.
Thanks so much, D. This is going to be a part of Male-ism II, which I’ll publish once I stop flip flopping on certain points.
etain
5:33 pm | Aug 20, 2008I don’t have anything against PUA or similar services/website, but I’ll try to explain why I will not solicit such services or websites.
First, I think the term “Better Asian Man” is an interesting one. It has the not so subtle implication that I (you could substitute “Asian men” here but hell I’m the one writing this comment) need to become better. Personally, I think one of the most important lessons that I learned, and granted it took me a very long time to learn this, is that THERE ISN’T ACTUALLY ANYTHING WRONG WITH ME. In this specific context, I mean I’m not actually doing anything wrong with respect to women. They’re not unattracted to me at disproportionate rates because of something I’m doing incorrectly. I forgot where I read it but one of the best little quips I read was something along the lines of, “Suggesting that women aren’t attracted to Asian men because of something that Asian men are or are not doing is like suggesting that it’s the fault of Asian women that men fetishize them and think of them as exotic sex trophies.” Like behindtheyellowcurtain said, the game is just simply rigged. It’s not my fault that it’s rigged. I don’t need to become better. I’m already good! I’m just playing against a stacked deck.
I’ll fully admit that losing sucks. And in this context, losing simply means not having as much female attention as everyone else. Regardless of how good you know you are, and regardless of how much you understand why things happen, ultimately it still sucks when the girl ignores you and goes home with the non-Asian guy. But the reason that happened isn’t because of something inherently wrong with me, and I think this is something that really does need to be emphasized because it’s easy to lose sight of when the chips fall. I didn’t approach her incorrectly. Nothing about my personality was a turn-off. I’m not ugly. I simply lost to the house in blackjack. And I don’t like being told that I need to become “better” because the more I am, the more I will actually think that there really is something wrong with me that I need to improve.
In the end, what needs to become “better” is not Asian men, but the game. Deluding yourself into thinking that it’s you that’s the problem isn’t going to change the fact that the game is rigged. I totally understand and sympathize if Asian men are subscribing to PUAs and related websites in order to meet women and feel better about themselves. In fact, I’d probably support it if they just treated it as a haphazard and harmless way to get laid. However, as we can see from the past month on this site, it is anything but haphazard and harmless. It is very much politically and socially significant. I don’t think it’s possible for an Asian guy to solicit these services and not feel like there’s something fundamentally wrong with him, and that’s why I don’t think it’s the best foot to put forward.
howstrange
6:21 pm | Aug 20, 2008No, I agree with you. I’m not saying that PUA and BAM sites shouldn’t exist. I actually stated that I understood the need for them. I think I’m just trying to make a point that egocentric prescriptions can be quite toxic to post-conventional thinkers, like most of the 44s readership. This topic always strains the AM/AF relations on this website.
MinorityMilitant
7:02 pm | Aug 20, 2008I would have to totally agree with you most of you guys on this, Dialectic. I understand that some people think we need other ways of AA male empowerment, but this right here, this shit is so ridiculous is makes me furious. Since Jaehwan welcomes conflict, this is one fight I think we need to seriously debate. I have been a bit radical in the way I feel about these guys, but in all honesty it’s the straw that breaks the camels back for me.
This is just parts of what I posted on my blog and I just wanted to share it with you. And thank for having this discussion on here for us all. Some of what I said is harsh, but I stand by what I said.
Here it is:
We all should know already that the Asian men here in the “Western” world have trouble getting play time from even Asian women, much less non-Asian women. Before you get your panties in a bunch and start knocking on me for saying that, I’d like to point out that not all Asian men have this problem — just a majority of them do. I’d love to go through the history of all this, but a lot of it has to do with the way the mainstream has emasculated my Asian brothers throughout the rise of the mass communications era of the 20th century until this very day — much of which will not change any time soon.
Okay, so what’s up with BetterAsianMan and APB and why am I bringing these guys up? For one, you can make an argument that these guys are a bunch of misogynistic chauvinist pigs trying to fuck anything that hints of a sign of life (e.g. breathing, twitching, etc.). Secondly, after watching a Youtube video of this guy APB, I could not help but want to give him some of my own advice on looking halfway presentable on video to promote himself to these helpless guys eager to learn a thing or two about courting a woman. And third, are you fucking serious? Is this the best we can do?
*Here we go again*
Now I know I just pissed off a bunch of Asian dudes and I welcome your comments with open arms, but if there’s any kind of fucking going on around here, it’s guys like APB making a fool out of himself and selling a service that’s so flawed it reeks of failure. Sure I’ve never attended any of his workshops or bootcamp for his ABC’s of attraction program and how would I know if this shit really works?
Look, I’m all for empowering Asian men and I think there are other ways besides academia and alternatively institutionalizing programs that don’t work. Why not get into sports and give that a try? Be an Olympian, a professional athlete, a porn star, a weightlifter — anything, really, just to prove you can play the game just as good as them or even better.
A quote from a Q&A session on BetterAsianMan:
“Asian Americans are the only ethnic group in the U.S. where the women are more sexually experienced than the men, in terms of dating, sexual partners, having a significant other, or even such a tiny thing as kissing. Are you going to argue with me about why I’m wrong for acknowledging this fact on this website, or are you going to propose a better solution than what is proposed by the Asian Playboy?”
It’s not even about enforcing an ethnic stereotype anymore, it’s about pulling facts out of your ass and making people believe that most of this is true. You’ve bought into that notion, not people like me. I know a lot of my Asian male friends have been and are currently shacking up with women of every color, shapes, and sizes. But this bogus literature right here, this screams “I wanna help you helpless and sexless Asian men.” I’ll admit, the ratio of Asian men getting laid consistently here probably isn’t all that great compared to our counterparts, but do you really need to pay some clown to help boost your ego?
I really didn’t want to take it this far, but I’m thrown aback by profiteers trying to make a buck by selling out their own people. That’s right, believing in the mainstream ideas and accepting them as the social norm for the rest of us is at best ignorant. And to top it all off, we go through lengths debating this issue and getting absolutely nowhere. But as for this bogus program with the word “Asian Men” attached to it, you give them every right to bag on us because it’s now become a part your own stereotypical preconceptions.
If it’s a self-esteem issue we’re dealing with, then you probably need some counseling and not a session with folks like APB and BetterAsianMen. Here’s my advice to you guys that need help with women: Join a health club, pick up a hobby, make some friends, sharpen your people skills, learn to listen and stop trying to fuck them — the women. Need more help? How about making friends with women and getting some womanly advice for once? It might save you hundreds of dollars.
King4aDay
7:32 pm | Aug 20, 2008Dialectic said:
“Secondly, people tend to think of judging physical traits as being “objectifying” but they don’t apply the term to judging psychological traits. This is somewhat arbitrary and unfair: even if you’re judging someone’s personality, you’re still judging. That personality is an object in your judgmental eye.”
———–
I have always understood the definition of “objectification,” as is used in common parlance, to mean an “unhealthy” or “imbalanced” valuation of a person (or class of persons) based upon a specific attribute or quality rather than as a whole person.
Therefore, I would think that an imbalanced regard for either a person’s physical appearance, intelligence, social position, or the size of their wallet, can all be an acts of objectification.
But to my mind, the defining factor is one of imbalance and of undue emphasis. If a guy thinks that the only important part of a woman is her boobs, then that’s objectification—but if he is factoring in her boobs along with the rest of who she is, then I’d say that it is not.
Therefore, I can agree with people making judgments about others based on their traits. We have to render judgments, and we can’t make them without considering, at least, some of the person’s traits as criteria. However, it only becomes objectification (to my mind) when the judgment is not based on the broad spectrum of personhood, but rather upon their estimated value in fulfilling the needs or the estimator. This would be true both for males and females.
This is the lense through which I see the PUA phenomenon, and the measure of its validity for me. IF PUAs are judging women as whole persons, then I have no objection. But if women are seen as a means to an end (political or sexual) then I must reject this.
Dialectic
12:30 am | Aug 21, 2008Some very brief responses.
First, etain:
I take your point etain, and in the context of some people, you’re absolutely right. There is nothing all that wrong with some guys, and they don’t need “fixing” r therapy or extra training.
Here’s the thing: when the odds are stacked against a population in anything: money, sexuality, social status, whatever, that will fuck up a good portion of that population. That’s inevitable: external oppression will be internalized into the culture. It won’t happen to everyone, and for some it won’t happen to any great extent, but it will happen.
And don’t forget that I said that this stuff act as a sort of therapeutic regression for a certain portion of the population: the guys that get really fucked up because they haven’t had a meaningful relationship with a single woman into their 20s and 30s. Many of them actually need this, or something like this, and there are more of them in the AM population than in the general population.
There are quite a few AMs who have been made better people for it, who have been helped immensely, not just in romance and sex, but in life in general by it, and it does them a great disservice, indeed, it oppresses their perspective, by dismissing it and their experiences and feelings.
Remember, I, and anyone else reasonably intelligent and knowledgeable of these issues, am not saying that this PUA stuff, and the people who go to it, are the “best foot” to put forward. But I view it a reasonably necessary phenomenon which can meaningfully engage some portion of the population.
Dialectic
12:34 am | Aug 21, 2008Howstrange:
Actually, egocentric prescriptions such as this one are only toxic to “green” or “post-modern” postconventional thinkers. Orange/modern and integral are fine with it. In fact, green is often fine with red/egocentric prescriptions in the context of tribal anti-establishment practices. The problem here is that PUA philosophy and tactics conflict with the thinking of some schools of feminism and social science discourse, which puts it at odds with green.
Dialectic
12:50 am | Aug 21, 2008Minoritymilitant:
Thanks for posting.
First, I never endorsed APB, and I never said all PUA is awesome and should be applauded. I said there is a place for it, and the only processes of this kind I can endorse are ones which have some healthy moral and political perspective, which I think William has. I’m also told by Jaehwan he’s a good guy, and he did good work on Fallout Central.
So just like how we can’t absolutely lump all Asian guys in the category of fucked-up and emasculated, we can’t lump all PUA processes in the category of exploitive, misogynistic, and juvenile.
The point I’m making about “empowerment” is that Asian men in general, are severely imbalanced in their development: a lot of them may be really smart, well accomplished academically and professionally, may hit the gym 5 times a week, may do all sorts of shit, and still be “stunted” when it comes to sexuality. Some people find this hard to believe because they haven’t seen or experienced it, but it’s true.
I have a few friends who are awesome with women, and know a bunch of guys who are “average” too, but I’ve seen a lot of guys, and have had a lot of friends, who are average or much worse than average when it comes to passing the romantic threshold with a girl.
This goes into a discussion of stereotypes, which I’ve gone into at length elsewhere, but some stereotypes are actually true in a general context, and it’s not wrong to acknowledge them, where they come from, the truth they hold, and the causes. This current practice of not describing stereotypes for fear of “reinforcing” them is harmful, because then you can’t talk about certain problems at all, much less get into their causes.
And don’t forget, this PUA stuff isn’t just for Asians, it’s for everyone. What these businessmen have done is take the general prescription and made it specific for AM problems. I doubt it’s going to affect the images of AM any worse than the general PUA approach affects that of men, white, Asian, or otherwise: it’s generally perceived as a niche thing for guys that need extra help (the adjectives “desperate” or “pathetic” are sometimes used) in something they’re far behind in, and which has hurt them.
What many people don’t seem to have understood is that these guys can have friends, can work out, can have a hobby, can have a decent job and education, and are still fucked up about their sexuality. Counseling isn’t going to directly help this, because counseling isn’t teaching them how to pick up a girl; it isn’t teaching them how to walk, how to talk, how to spot, how to approach, even how to embrace or kiss.
I can see it’s hard for some of you to understand the extent to which these men are stunted, and the extent to which they need help, but in most societies, if you haven’t picked up these things at a certain age, it becomes next to impossible to pick them up at all, and then they have to be taught.
Dialectic
12:55 am | Aug 21, 2008King4aday:
We don’t have much disagreement here. I’d slightly adjust your definition of objectification by pointing out that in our society, if you place a massive emphasis on, say, personality, or some sub-aspect like interests or compassion, without considering anything else, you’re not objectifying, because those are considered more essential qualities of “personness” than the physical. This is fair enough, but people tend to forget that they’re still judging based on a set of criteria for excellence and attractiveness, and there is still a degree of objectification there.
(In fact, any judging is really objectification, because a purely subjective approach would simply mean identifying with the subject, using — Xian’s favorite word — empathy, and “feeling” someone from the inside. Anyway I agree that viewing someone as a whole person is a good thing. I would also point out, though, that it’s ok to “rank” people you’re attracted to according to your criteria, because that’s what’s happening anyway, all the time, in both men and women, as long as you realize it’s a bit of a tongue-in-cheek thing and don’t treat people like shit.)
I agree with the way you evaluate a PUA process; as I said above, I don’t endorse all PUA, I just think there is a place for it at its essence (helping guys get over their fear and insecurity in picking up girls), and I would only endorse those people/programs which have a healthy moral/political component.
Dialectic
1:00 am | Aug 21, 2008A note to everyone here: thanks for your compliments and criticisms, I really appreciate the discussion. I don’t think I’ll be participating much more beyond here, because I find as discussions get too long we start going in circles, points start getting repeated, and it becomes a values exercise where everyone has substantial agreement on the facts but not their moral or social interpretation.
Please continue for as long as you like. I’ll pop in if I see something that hasn’t been addressed, but I think I’ve said most of what I had to say.
howstrange
1:44 am | Aug 21, 2008—”Actually, egocentric prescriptions such as this one are only toxic to “green” or “post-modern” postconventional thinkers”—
Isn’t that what I just wrote? I agree that Integral can appreciate and tolerate red, even advocate it for certain conditions, but it also has no problem drawing the line and saying certain red actions are just unacceptable.
Yeah, I’ll check out of this convo as well, written discussion isn’t a forte of mine and I feel I’m not quite getting out what I want to say.
etain
2:05 am | Aug 21, 2008Dialectic,
Your points are also well taken. I do not deny that many AMs could use a great deal of self-confidence and personal esteem. And yes, I obviously agree that being exposed to this culture and internalizing it necessarily diminishes both.
I think where my perspective differs is I feel like what’s even more important than a self-esteem fixer upper is recognition of what western male driven culture has done to us AMs. What’s even more painful (to me) than AMs not having self-confidence due to not being able to attract female attention is we feeling that it’s somehow our fault. That is, it’s because of me that women don’t like me.
In my opinion, even more tantamount than building up self-confidence in AMs is the complete elimination of this terribly invidious notion.
While I agree that PUA can lend a hand in protracting the self-confidence of AMs, I don’t think it does very much in yanking them outside of the western male culture so they can realize from an objective perspective that there really is nothing wrong with themselves. Rather, I see PUA as actually further entrenching AMs into this culture. From my understanding, the service offered by PUA is not therapy or counseling, it’s dating tactics and pick-up strategem. In my opinion, an AM soliciting this service comes away with one of two messages:
1) I was doing something wrong before
2) There’s still something wrong with me, but now I know some tricks to mitigate that
With respect to internalizing vs being aware of the effects western male culture, I think choice one has a neutral effect. However, I think choice two actually causes the customer to further internalize western male culture. He becomes even more convinced that there’s something wrong with himself, which is why he needs a few tricks and maneuvers to get what he wants. Ultimately he’ll never be on par with his non-Asian peers, regardless of how many tricks he knows, but he’s going to believe it’s because he was never good enough in the first place, and will never recognize that he was always good enough but just gets screwed by the surrounding culture.
In the end, I think PUA can be useful in a self-gratification sense, but potentially very harmful and counterproductive in an Asian awareness sense.
etain
2:23 am | Aug 21, 2008I actually do want to add that I totally support William’s purpose and his endeavor. Specifically it takes an extreme amount of courage to do what he’s doing. I know I, and probably a lot of AMs, have found themselves in somewhat awkward conversations with male and females friends of all races regarding our meager relationship histories. Sometimes we’re bold enough to try to explain why it’s more difficult as AMs to elicit attention, which leads not only to more awkwardness but is essentially an admission of weakness.
William starts the conversation for us in a comfortable forum and in a manner that’s not condescending or depressing. Kudos for that!
As I said before, my only gripe is that it works entirely within the system without seeming to acknowledge that the system in the first place is broken. Without that recognition, people who follow PUA advice will believe that it’s only they who are broken and not the system.
I think if he can incorporate this perspective he could really have something on his hands, kind of like a slightly fiery Asian GQ.
RebelAzn
3:16 am | Aug 21, 2008Until Asian American men and women can figure out some way to accept each other the way we are vs. looking at each other through white stereotypical eyes, nothing gonna work.
Candide
4:22 am | Aug 21, 2008I only got a crappy bachelor degree at uni and the comments here are too intellectual and contain too many big words for my brain to comprehend, but I notice that you guys have been building up a strawman for your arguments. Let me describe that PUA strawman:
- He only picks up drunk trashy club chicks for ONS.
- He only goes for white chicks and disregards Asian women.
- He uses dirty low-brow immoral tactics.
- He looks and acts like Asian Playboy and his crew.
- He started learning PUA stuff because he had no social skill nor confidence, and sucked with women.
- He learned PUA by going down the same path that William and other APB alumnis did: take a boot camp, read some materials, approach zillions of women, use PUA tactics on them, get laid etc.
- He is sexist/mysoginist because he wants to get laid.
And I also saw a lot of ifs here too.
I think some people have made several attempts to show that there are other types, but folks here think the PUA strawman is prettier and ignore the rest. Oh well.
For some reason, this whole thing reminds me of the Asian struggle to be fairly represented in the media as multi-dimensional individuals instead of a bunch of stereotypes.
wlee815
8:57 am | Aug 21, 2008etain,
Thank you for your words of support. It really means a lot to me. The dialogue I see in this thread of comments is precisely the kind of discussion I have been looking for for a really long time. That’s part of the reason why I started working on Better Asian Man.com– to bring out some conversation that I feel is really needed. The sheer volume of commentary that this thread has generated really shows me that I’m on the right track towards opening up certain avenues of conversation which, in the vast majority of AA activism forums (live and on-line), I’ve observed to be completely closed off.
Regarding the subject of addressing media stereotypes (Etain):
I wrote one entry on “negative mainstream media stereotypes” here. As with all other entries in my blog under the “One Asian American Man’s Life” category, I decided to discuss the issue starting from how it affected my life in the past, and how it affects (or no longer affects) my life now that I’ve taken a class with the ABCs of Attraction. In all of my blog entries, I open it up at the end to the readers basically giving them a chance to chyme in and give their recommendations on a different, and possibly better, way to acheive a similar positive change in one’s life. I recognize (as Dialectic has mentioned a couple of times in this thread), that the solution that works for me is not necessarily applicable to everyone.
Regarding the subject of “implying that there’s something wrong with the reader,” I can see where you’re coming from now. However, at the time that I mapped out the idea, what I was going for was to say that I feel that _I_ am a Better Asian Man now, and “here’s how I got there.” Also, in my FAQ section at the bottom of my ABOUT page, I addressed a similar question with this answer:
I actually WOULD like to make my website into a “fiery Asian GQ”. That would be awesome!! If you have suggestions on other topics that I could write about that would realize that vision, please let me know.
THX1138
9:29 am | Aug 21, 2008THX1138
9:31 am | Aug 21, 2008Problem with quote formatting. I meant to include RebelAzn’s comments below:
“Until Asian American men and women can figure out some way to accept each other the way we are vs. looking at each other through white stereotypical eyes, nothing gonna work.”
Xian
10:43 am | Aug 21, 2008Quite frankly, using Xian-style “be excellent,” “be yourself,” “be beautiful,” “develop meaningful long-term relationships” and other such “techniques” will not work for the majority of men who need some sort of guidance in the first place, the ones who have had their confidence and their ability to interact with both women and men damaged well into their 20s and 30s.
I don’t understand the need to strawman and mischaracterize when your arguments are so strong (meant completely straight–no sarcasm).
I read the original post and agreed with it entirely. I have walked the path to develop self-confidence from none and understand fully that there is no magic bullet solution and there a lot of individually focused growth that needs to take place before one is able to simply “be excellent”.
“Developing meaningful long-term relationships” is the key, but is rooted in developing a meaningful long-term relationship with yourself, and programs that work with meaningful self-improvement are a key component of this.
But it doesn’t help to get you from LA to San Francisco to book a flight to London, and knowing Heathrow, you might get stuck there. My past criticism was only for programs that encouraged personal “growth” by nurturing insecurity and self-absorbedness. Greater insecurity is not a useful step towards security, nor is self-absorbedness a meaningful component of self-love.
Encouraging self-love is great. No one is disputing that. Sometimes, you might take a soundbite of mine that refers to the long-term goals and it may seem that I’m ignoring the journey. It’s a conversation, I can’t write the 5000 word trip every time–that doesn’t mean I’ve forgotten it. Furthermore, the pathology often enters when we forget another thoughtful piece of advice, “Keep your eyes on the prize”. When we forget the ultimate goal is not “actually getting someone to sleep with you” we can pursue “solutions” that take us away from healthy self-love.
Your post does a good job remembering both–the ultimate goals and the needs of the journey and I salute that.
Dialectic
11:12 am | Aug 21, 2008Quick one-offs.
Howstrange: you mentioned “postconventional,” implying that red/regressive ideas would be toxic to orange, green, and integral. (Recall that everything before blue is preconventional, blue is conventional, post-blue is postconventional.) I just wanted to remind you that it’s only really green who has a huge problem with this stuff. And in terms of this site, quite frankly I write for integral or potential-integral and I don’t feel beholden to water my stuff down too much, especially since it doesn’t make me money :P
etain: thanks for your responses, we’re in general agreement. I actually forgot to add another thought yesterday before I went to bed. Wanting to become “better” doesn’t necessarily imply that you think you’re “broken.” Two points here:
1) Shibalsheki’s dad once told him that he had to be 30% better than whites to be at the same level. This is a variation of the lesson that almost all minority children hear from their parents: you have to be way better than whites (30%, 50%, 100%, whatever) to be at an “equal” level with them, and it’s true. This doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong with you or you suck, it’s an acknowledgement that the deck is stacked against you (or that the system is “broken,” if you will), and you have to kick ass. You have to try that much harder to get similar results.
2) On a broader social, and somewhat philosophical level, realizing that you’re ok, and that you don’t need to be better, and that you’re “perfect” the way you are is very important for self-esteem and healthy development, but it’s only half the story. A healthy person has to be able to hold two ideas in her head simultaneously: that she’s fundamentally ok (your point), but ALSO that she could always be better. That’s how we improve, mature, grow, progress. What’s currently happening in society is that their has been so much emphasis on the former point in education and social studies that we have created the most narcissistic, self-absorbed, entitled generation ever. It’s important to understand both sides of this coin: to be ok with yourself and still strive to be better.
Xian: I apologize for jabbing at you. I can’t help it, and this stems from our years of online history and the fact that I find you adorably annoying (or annoyingly adorable). It will probably continue. Also, I was wondering if you were still reading. I take your point, and I know what you and Minoritymilitant are saying. I think we’re in general agreement that there’s a place for this stuff, provided it doesn’t turn you into a sociopathic asshole.
jaehwan
11:59 am | Aug 21, 2008Is that you, Stealth? Awesome picture!
jaehwan
12:03 pm | Aug 21, 2008D:
Haha…well, when I put my mouse over it, it just says “Asian child,” which I’m sure you once were, but I’ll assume that it’s another young lad trying to become a Better Asian Man, and at a very young age, I might add.
Now this kid is going to be years ahead of all of us. He’s flexing his muscles at…what…age 5? By the time he’s 25, there will be no need for bootcamp.
MinorityMilitant
1:28 pm | Aug 21, 2008Dialectic,
I’m gonna call you out because most of the comments here seem to complement your perspective regarding this topic. And your responses to some of the comments are just ridiculous. High brow, low brow, or not, this program has the word sex-deprived and emasculated ASIAN MEN written all over it.
PUA -
“And don’t forget, this PUA stuff isn’t just for Asians, it’s for everyone. What these businessmen have done is take the general prescription and made it specific for AM problems. I doubt it’s going to affect the images of AM any worse than the general PUA approach affects that of men, white, Asian, or otherwise: it’s generally perceived as a niche thing for guys that need extra help (the adjectives “desperate” or “pathetic” are sometimes used) in something they’re far behind in, and which has hurt them.”
Look, if they need help, they can turn to the general PUA’s for everyone. My point is why does this have to be “Better Asian Men”? And to the part about not knowing whether it would worsen the AM image, it’s people like ABP that that keep reinforcing them. I know there are others bashing us constantly, but if you’re on the other side of the track with the White man’s preconception of yourself — then you deserve to be called out. And if you endorse these folks, then you are precisely the problem. Your post here is nothing short of an endorsement.
STEREOTYPES -
“This goes into a discussion of stereotypes, which I’ve gone into at length elsewhere, but some stereotypes are actually true in a general context, and it’s not wrong to acknowledge them, where they come from, the truth they hold, and the causes. This current practice of not describing stereotypes for fear of “reinforcing” them is harmful, because then you can’t talk about certain problems at all, much less get into their causes.”
How would we not be able to talk about them at all? This is like giving them a green light to bash you, but yet we’ll leave it to the judge to decide whether it’s right or wrong. It’s not just about reinforcing them, it’s about misleading them. The problem isn’t getting girls, the problem is being socially incapacitated. You have misled most of the people here to think that this is an alternative to assist you in your self-esteem issues. Asian men have lost the battle before they’ve even begun it.
They have bought into the idea that they are “asexual” and “undesirable” from the mainstream of the White man’s suppression of the Asian man. That’s the real problem. And if we keep having degenerates like APB throwing himself out there and attaching “Asian Men” to these whack-ass programs, it’ll just confirm every inkling of this “stereotype” of the weak and sexless Asian male. We’ve come to a point now that Asian men — themselves — think they are undesired.
ASIAN AMERICAN MALE EMPOWERMENT –
Obviously, there are way too many different ways of empowering ourselves. If you wanna be empowered, you go out there and you read “The Chickencoop Chinamen”. I have heard some people invoking Frank Chin’s name but yet have misconstrued every core message that he has championed. I’m sure most of you on here haven’t, except maybe Jaehwan — that I could tell. Not to insult anyone’s intelligence, but I think many of you guys are lost.
You wanna talk about AA empowerment, you go out there and love yourself in your own skin. That’s love. When all that self-hate goes away and you’ve rejected the mainstream’s idea about yourself and your own people, we’ll have another debate about interracial-dating. Once you get that confidence going, you’ll be brave enough to walk out there on the streets and hang your dick out like it’s the hottest thing mother-earth ever produced.
tokyolovestory
3:11 pm | Aug 21, 2008D is right in that I have a hard time imagining the kind of emotional crippling it takes to become so stunted in one’s psychological and social development. I just find it unfortunate that the first step is only the FIRST step and it seems that many of these “teachers” are shirking part of what would seem to be their responsibility–to teach the morals that go along with the lessons.
Part of my question for this issue, too, is the way the treatment of women is justified. Sometimes the argument is “well women do it too,” which seems to fall flat from a truly mature viewpoint. Another argument appears to be that we as women should just deal with it because we are already at an advantage. I’m not quite sure what this “advantage” is, but if it’s being seen as a hypersexualized “geisha girl” thing, it’s DEFINITELY not an advantage to me–it’s a burden.
kwak76
4:07 pm | Aug 21, 2008tokyolovestory,
To answer your first concern there is small but a minority movement within the community that do want to teach the moral aspect along with everything else. The concept is to get a quality woman the man has to be a quality person. To become a quality person the person has to be a better person. This also involves morality.
How can someone become a better person without any moral growth?
Granted most people in the community do not discuss moral issue and consider it to be more up to the individual and issues that is personal but they do discuss it.
The second argument you bring up is about what if woman play the game and does that justify that man should do it too? This one I actually have issues with and honestly I have no answer to.
In a ideal world people should just be honest with their feelings and what they want but in the real world it doesn’t happen. It seems like people are afraid to admit what they want or to be vulnerable. Instead what people do (this applies to both men and women) they cover it up and act as if something else.
Honestly I would like to live in a world where I could just go up to a girl and tell her how I feel and start dating her and see what happens from there but in the real world it doesn’t work like that. Even if the girl is not interested it is OK for rejection but I also experience women just playing games with me.
A honest “no” would of been just fine but instead I get flakes and broken promises. I don’t know why but I realize that is just the way it is.
When they say women have the advantage what that mean is that when it comes to the initial approach it usually falls on the men burden. I meet lots of guys including myself who have a hard time breaking the ice or doing that initial approach. Not saying that women don’t approach men but typical it is the guy that does that.
Your last comment about being seen as a “hyper sexual geisha girl” I agree with. This is a burden that falls on Asian women and Asian people. I think I better understand why you have your concern. I failed to listen to your other post. As a women particularly as a Asian women being an object as some sort of toy is great burden deal with.
The solution to that is little complicated. It comes down to Asian people being empowered with 3-dimension characteristics of Asian men and women having real personality and not being judge on stereotypes. I think we all know that.
However, in the sexual realm as D article pointed out. Asian men and Asian women are at the polar opposite extreme. Asian women being highly desired where as Asian men being non-entity in the sexual arena. There is no real easy answer that I can think of.
The only solution I can think of is that Asian men have to work harder to break the stereotypes and to be able to have the confidence to develop into full heathly sexual confident men. This does not mean I condone sleeping around or objectifying women but having the confidence that he can compete and go out in the world.
Icepac
4:13 pm | Aug 21, 2008What we really need is some strong and powerful asian american male role models.
tokyolovestory
5:10 pm | Aug 21, 2008Kwak,
I don’t know if I’ve said this in so many words before but here goes:
I am not finding fault with YOU when I point out the fundamental issues I have with PUA and the way it teaches men to approach women, and people in general. I am not tying its “flaws” (in my eyes, that is, this is only my opinion after all) to you, personally. It sounds like you’ve at least taken the first step toward moving toward the person–the man–you want to be and that’s awesome for you and I applaud your efforts that have gotten you this far.
But with all due respect, I think you’re still not really understanding what I was saying about the geisha girl phenomenon, because two paragraphs later, you mention about how Asian women as “highly desired.” I would much rather that when people look at me, they see a PERSON, not a symbol of sexuality or “beauty.” I don’t want, or need, to be “highly desired” by any men other than the men that I desire: Asian men. And I would have hoped that having dealt with similar racial issues and conflicts in our lives, Asian men of ALL people would be able to see me as a person and not a number. It’s hurtful that I would be labeled and categorized by the very people I hope to find comfort and support with.
It is the same reason why it’s somehow more offensive when an Asian person refers to their own “chinky eyes” and “flat face.” Because they are accepting those things within themselves and by extension, applying them to you as well.
After all the battles of trying to get people to see me as a woman and not the “yellow cab,” I find that I have no support amongst my men–with the exception of a few who have been coming out of the woodwork lately, thank you, gentlemen.
Also, if you can show me a place where these PUA instructors tie the idea of “becoming the man of her dreams” to morality, that’d be great. Admittedly, I’ve only looked at the websites of the PUA instructors who appear to be spearheading the moving of Asian American male PUA and on their websites, I see no mention of morality.
wlee815
5:35 pm | Aug 21, 2008tokyolovestory,
I’ve been following a code of ethics since I took my 3-day bootcamp seminar with the Asian Playboy, but I didn’t publish it until I read your comment (comment #43). I’ve now published it:
http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=81
-William
Dialectic
6:46 pm | Aug 21, 2008Minoritymilitant, briefly, I’m really not sure what you’re calling me out on that I haven’t already addressed. As far as I can tell, I haven’t been “called out” on anything, and this will be my last post repeating points I’ve already made.
1. Yes, I am endorsing BAM, which is self-evident in my post, and in the banners we’re currently running. I’m not sure what your point is here.
2. Your understanding of stereotyping is incomplete. First, please read my Feature on Race, Stereotyping, and Socially-Constructed knowledge for my general position. Second, you’re taking the position that the stereotype is factually inaccurate, and that any acknowledgment of the truth to it is internalizing racism and damaging us. My position is more nuanced; no, Asians are not “intrinsically” asexual, emasculated, etc., and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with us. But being a minority in the West has had the effect of desexualizing and emasculating males in the general case, and many Asians are, in fact, sexually damaged as a result. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging this and doing something about it.
3. I agree with your advice that it’s good to love oneself and read insightful political books. I would advise the same thing. You seem to have missed a few essential points of what I’m saying.
You are not the first poster to make these “criticisms” (and I use the term loosely because they’re not all that coherent or well-considered, and the ones I understand are fairly standard post-modern social studies arguments), and everything I’ve said has already accounted for them. If you wish to engage in meaningful discussion, please re-read my posts (and my past Features) so that you can think critically and knowledgeably about your own positions, and therefore engage at a more considered level the next time you post.
To everyone, I’ve said enough on this topic now such that, if you actually understand what I’m saying, you’ll be able to generate what my response would be to any reasonable argument.
Ultimately, as I said in a post above, it’s going to come down to values, and the fact that some of you are associating more “wrongness” or “rightness” with certain facts and processes than others of you, and there is not a lot anyone can do to change that. (This goes into a discussion on just what moral reasoning is, which I might make a post about in the future.)
Dialectic
7:01 pm | Aug 21, 2008Oh and browsing through Kwak’s and Tokyo’s posts, I’ll clarify what I said about Asian men and women being at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of being sexually objectified.
The term OBJECTIFIED is important here, as AFs are being objectified in one direction - as exotic sexual objects - and AMs are being objectified in another - as asexual worker objects. Both are damaging in different ways. There are AMs who are envious of the general AF position, because their thinking is that AFs, at least, get guys, get media attention, get certain jobs, that are inacessible to the AMs, and there is some legitimacy to their feelings.
It’s important to note, however, that both types of objectification hurt us, and there’s no sense turning it into a suffering contest. The key is to understand each others’ suffering and work from there to alleviate it.
This mutual understanding is a problem in politically and emotionally charged debates, so it’s important that we all step back before wading in and do our best to expand our hearts and minds and see things from as many points of view as possible.
Finally, a note to Tokyo, a lot of people, men and women, don’t understand the extent to which people can be sexually stunted. In men, this typically takes the form of paralyzing fear and a total lack of confidence and experience with women, romance, sex, leading to performance issues (both in and out of the bed); in women, it manifests as insecurity, a crippling need for validation, and an inability to become sexually aroused.
Dialectic
7:29 pm | Aug 21, 2008For the sake of completeness, I’m reproducing part of my comment on objectification from Jaehwan’s first “Male-ism” post.
I also want to emphasize to readers that, as I told etain above, acknowledging that you can be better doesn’t mean you’re acknowledging that there’s something wrong with you now. We can all be better.
This jives with what King4aday and I discussed above, where if you have a fractured or partial view of someone, you haven’t identified with them as a whole person, but as an object (though we as a sensitive society tend to place more importance on certain “parts” than others, like personality or lovingness or intelligence, as opposed to physical traits).
MinorityMilitant
8:14 pm | Aug 21, 2008D,
Your quotes:
1)”First, I never endorsed APB, and I never said all PUA is awesome and should be applauded.”
2)”Yes, I am endorsing BAM, which is self-evident in my post, and in the banners we’re currently running. I’m not sure what your point is here.”
3)”My position is more nuanced; no, Asians are not “intrinsically” asexual, emasculated, etc., and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with us. But being a minority in the West has had the effect of desexualizing and emasculating males in the general case, and many Asians are, in fact, sexually damaged as a result. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging this and doing something about it.”
Not only have you acknowledged these so called facts, but you have believed in them. You are precisely the problem. You feed off that tube and have not a clue as to what your are arguing about. You keep throwing in those big “intrinsic” words so your half-wits can keep applauding you and tell you how great of a poster you really are.
What are you talking about, D? These are essentially the same kind of back and forth stuff you, yourself, have invoked. I don’t need to read your previous posts to understand this one. They obviously don’t agree with one another and you seem to be lost on the issues we’ve raised.
You’re biased so, I mean, why are we having this discussion if you’ve endorsed them already? This is a moot point, you’re right. I haven’t missed a thing about what you’re saying because I don’t think you know what you’re saying. Respectfully, of course.
It’s not about the advice I gave and the “political books” I suggested. That wasn’t a political book, by the way. You obviously have a lot of catching up to do telling me you only consider “coherent and well considered” arguments.
When you learn to formulate a halfway decent argument that’s not distorted and hog-washed in pseudo-conventional theory, maybe we can be on the same page for once.
And I don’t think you even came close to answering Tokyolovestory’s issues, much less a Neanderthal or a Yeti if they were alive and roaming around on the web.
tokyolovestory
9:05 pm | Aug 21, 2008William–
“1. Don’t lie to anyone.
2. When interacting with ANY person, leave that person better than you found them.”
I find these ideas, especially the second one, to be just as vague as xian’s points which people reference as to why some Asian men need PUA, so I can’t really bring myself to acknowledge this as true “moral guidance.”
Dialectic
10:42 pm | Aug 21, 2008Minoritymilitant, a point: you escalated the tone and aggression of this discourse, not me, and you did it with no provocation. This is already telling of your emotional state and development.
I don’t do pseudo-theories. I’m accomplished academically, professionally, and creatively. I have answered everything here. I understand your arguments better than you do.
I have known people exactly as I have described. A few members of our site were exactly like I have described. I, too, had hang-ups when I was younger, but they weren’t all that serious, and I was fortunate and graced enough to work through them. I suspect you are also a fortunate person, and there are people out there who aren’t as fortunate as us.
Tokyo and I have a good mutual respect, but there is nothing more that I can say to her that I haven’t already said. BAM is not a morally bad site, and William Lee is not a bad guy, and there is evidence of both moral and political consciousness there. I would advise people who have a visceral negative reaction to it to simply read my post and this discussion, along with his blog content, with an open and compassionate mind.
Jaehwan, that photo isn’t me, it’s a photo of some kid I found on MySpace which came with the caption, “Young Asian male, I was once like you,” which was funny, ’cause I talk like that.
tokyolovestory
11:04 pm | Aug 21, 2008D has in fact addressed one of my biggest issues in this discussion–I believe that that’s what the “necessary hypocrisy” was pointing to. I won’t say I like the answer and we may not agree completely, but he has addressed it to where, as he says, there is nowhere further for us to go.
In terms of morality, I understand that those two bullet points are a nod in the direction of morality and ethics (and the willingness to treat people as people); I just find that it is lacking because it appears to be one of those things that D says is too broad to be applied to any effect.
Dialectic
11:51 pm | Aug 21, 2008I’m not sure if I’d use the term “necessary hypocrisy” to describe my position; it’s more along the lines of what appears to be hypocrisy is not really hypocrisy from a developmental perspective
Why do we treat children differently from adults? Why do we treat mental patients differently from functional individuals? Why do we prescribe harmful drugs to the ill? Why do we prioritize our own interests ahead of those of any random human being? These stem from understanding maturity and development, pathology, treatment of pathology, and identity.
You can reframe pretty much any word or deed as a hypocrisy if you’re so inclined (which is what deconstructionists and some humanities scholars do); but the world is not so simply as “consistent” and “hypocritical” and the world, and human beings, are not static things; it is possible perceive things as processes and vice versa, it is possible to learn things from both static and dynamic views.
Understand everything in its proper context.
(This means, then, that you need a proper “metacontext” to contextualize contexts.)
As for BAM and William, what I sense goes beyond just those two statements (even though I think they’re fine as sort of guiding vision statements); I sense an understanding and empathy this goes beyond the business and marketing aspects (and to be honest, I find it hard to believe he’s making all that much money, but I could be wrong). It’s clear to me that means something to him, and he’s not just out to make a buck off the backs of a bunch of sucker men or women. And there are much easier ways to make money. Jaehwan has met William in person and interacted with him a fair bit in the Fallout Central days, and corroborates this.
wlee815
1:10 am | Aug 22, 2008Each bootcamp contains 30 hours of work during the bootcamp weekend, along with about 20 hours (spread out over 2 months after the bootcamp is over) in the form of follow up coaching sessions in person and over the phone.
The website and podcast consume about 9 hours per week, and costs me $20 to maintain due to large amounts of bandwidth and server space for podcast files.
So, in one month I spend 76 hours helping Asian American guys learn how to be themselves and convey themselves to women. For that I get paid $300.00. That comes out to $3.94 per hour.
Trust me, I’m not doing it for the money. During the daytime I’m a computer programmer and I design trading systems for investment banks.
wlee815
1:14 am | Aug 22, 2008As far as expenses go, I’ve spent about $3,500 on professional recording equipment, and a few hundred bucks on banner advertisements here, on 8asians.com, and on asianweek.com. I wanted to buy banner ads on angryasianman.com, but it looks like he’s not quite as open minded as thefighting44s.com :(
At the rate that I make money from coaching, I will have all of my expenses paid off after teaching 12 bootcamps. Since I do 1 per three months, I should have everything paid off in 3 years.
SoulSnax
1:57 am | Aug 22, 2008Hey William… I hear that there’s some whackjob (whom you might happen to know) teaching white guys how to pick up Asian women.
I know you would never do such a thing, but I have a couple of ideas for you. Feel free to use them:
-Offer to teach these guys “insider’s knowledge” on how to pick up Asian women, but charge them twice as much as your Asian clients.
-Furthermore, teach them everything they need to fail miserably.
Hopefully these tactics would help get everything paid off in no time at all!
Dialectic
10:52 am | Aug 22, 2008Thanks for sharing that about yourself, William. While I didn’t know specifics, I suspected your situation would look something like that.
As for Angry, he’s a good guy, but he’s not particularly insightful and doesn’t like to touch anything controversial within the AA community, particularly the gender/sexual stuff.
He gave us our “break” when we first started by mentioning us on his site, and he has mentioned us again here and there, but as soon as I sent him a link to what I’d written on IR (and my tone in that article was completely respectful and open), he ignored my email with no response.
I also think his site is both hurting and helping now. He calls out too many things as “racist” and sounds too judgmental in certain cases, which is off-putting to moderate whites and Asians. In addition, he gives too many Asian Americans a pass for putting out questionable work and making questionable statements, and his definition of Asian American is too broad.
Xian
11:52 am | Aug 22, 2008D: I agree with your general ideal of “to each as they need”. I just think stereotyping guides like, “Children are different from adults and should be treated differently” are dangerous and not particularly useful. Every individual has different needs and should be treated differently. The differences between individuals tend to be more profound than the differences by age.
I tend to have picked up my habits in how to treat kids from my mother. She just talks to them the same way as any adult with some minor alterations. They seem to like it and they certainly learn a lot more.
People need different stuff, but if you assume you know exactly what they need and what they can handle before you know much about them as an individual, you tend to limit your interactions.
Dialectic
2:56 pm | Aug 22, 2008Xian, I appreciate what you’re saying. I would summarize my approach not so much in terms of needs, but rather, the ability and consideration “to meet people where they are.”
With regard to the children/adults statement, it’s not “useful” in that it doesn’t get into specifics, but it holds an important truth. Calling a generalization a stereotype clouds the issue; the fact is, children are not adults, and generally, one has to speak with children differently than one speaks to adults.
This does not mean that you condescend to them, lord your “maturity” or authority over them, or command them. You meet them where they are; you establish a rapport by virtue of common experience and values and interact with them in a respecful and intelligent manner.
I would also disagree that we can generalize whether the differences between individuals are more profound than differences between age, and in any case, as I’ve said in many posts and comments, it’s about understanding where someone is in his/her development in his/her various lines or “modules” and acting accordingly. My simplified child/adult example was used to illustrate, in an obvious manner, that people do grow, and that we don’t give the keys to the car and a bottle of beer to an 8 year-old.
I think you appreciate this, and I think you appreciate that development is most obvious in the childhood years leading up to the 20s.
I have been in teacher, authority, and caretaker positions with people of varying ages, including university, high school, and infants, and my experiences have been quite positive; when I say we treat kids like kids, I don’t mean we treat them like animals or immature babies or I tell them I know better than them and here’s the way things are. It just means I treat kids like kids. If teaching and mentoring didn’t pay so poorly and have so much fucked up politics, I’d be a teacher or social worker right now.
I never assumed that I know exactly what people need, and in fact, I assume very little about people before I interact with them. But after speaking to or dealing with people, even in the course of just a few hours or days, it’s not that hard to start understanding where they come from, what they’re looking for, and what their issues are.
Anyway, once again, my point is to emphasize that development happens, and without accounting for this, treating anyone differently from anyone else can be easily twisted into “hypocrisy.”
buttermilkwiseman
8:16 pm | Aug 24, 2008highschooldropout
6:55 pm | Oct 16, 2008Honestly, I prefer Frank Chin’s approach where he places the blame where it belongs: on white racism. When that white guy’s got his foot on my throat and steals everything I’ve got, I’m not “stunted”, I’m being ripped off. Any black who is victimized by urban renewal, credit discrimination, employment discrimination, etc., sees what goes on, and doesn’t have a “self-image” problem. We as non-whites have a reality problem. The “better Asian Male” is the one who takes what is his by right, not by being “better”.
The real work for us is a lot more than asian male sexuality. The biggest and most unpleasant job is fixing the scars between asian women and asian men.
Self-serving caucasian myths are about more than attacking non-white sexuality; these myths are part of a deeply entrenched racism where whites profit off our backs in a number of ways. Take slavery and labor exploitation for example. A big task is uniting and having solidarity with other non-whites, especially working class non-whites. And yes, working-class whites also. That’s going to be a tough one, but it’s been done before.
What whites steal from us is pretty obvious, but wouldn’t asian males at the forefront of universal health care or a new minimum wage law be more socially powerful? Now is a good time for it, since the power structure of this country is suffering from the upper class’ economic and political overreaching.
How about pushing for reparations for blacks? The political benefits of asian men supporting this are enormous. My point is that whites profit from their sexual lies about blacks, asians, latinos, etc. Why put energy into constructing a “better, un-stunted” image? Isn’t that just playing their game by their rules?
When the Black Panthers came out with their political tactics and philosophy, Whites definitely felt under the gun back in the 60s. Blacks didn’t go out of their way to project a new safe sexual “good” image for whites. They said “black is beutiful” it’s true, but they combined that with community activism and a political movement based on broad community support. Now that’s the stuff of claiming what’s coming to you.
Don’t get me wrong, as a Chinese male, I know exactly where I stand in the pecking order, and I sure as hell didn’t choose it either. The thing is that white racism is so pervasive that the whole of social customs and society is corrupted. Trying to create a safe sexual identity for asian males is kind of like a paint job on a broken house. Why not attack whites where it counts? The current social order can’t be reformed, it needs to be destroyed first and then recreated.
THX1138
11:08 am | Oct 19, 2008HighSchoolDropout:
Your post is one of the more articulate that I have read on the Fighting 44s.
I like your point that the “current social order can’t be reformed.”
This is the problem with mainstream Asian American activism. It seeks to reform and appeal to an American system that–in terms of race–is founded upon White Supremacy.
“The real work for us is a lot more than asian male sexuality. The biggest and most unpleasant job is fixing the scars between asian women and asian men.”
This is also very true. I see this gender division even among Asian Americans who are relatively politically conscious. I can imagine it is much more pronounced for Asian Americans in mainstream society, who are largely oblivious (or indifferent) to the larger race and gender issues that drive this division.
Ginnie14
10:29 pm | Dec 08, 2008Hi guys,
I am a white woman, in a happy relationship with a Chinese man, and I wanted to say a few things.
You all know where this stupid stereotypes about Asian men came from, and what their purpose is. It is hard to get rid of that historical burden created by the dominant and paranoid white culture, but you simply have to. You have the right to enjoy life and feel great about yourselves. All human beings are the same on the inside, and it’s only the culture and economy that create differences.
I don’t know much about the problems between AM and AF, so I won’t talk about that. However, I can assure you that a lot of white women find Asian men very attractive and masculine. Of course, our white brothers don’t want you to know that, because that would hurt their egos. Asian men don’t lack anything in terms of masculinity, and shyness is often a plus. Women like to feel respected and appreciated, and as if they are being chased by a hungry dog. Maybe guys among themselves portray great assertiveness as something very positive, but from a woman’s perspective, it is more like to repel than attract. If you are shy but friendly, women will come to you because it’s not about hunting - it’s all about attracting. Dominance may play a role between men, but women respond best to tenderness and attention. A sign of mature masculinity is knowing how to treat a woman properly. In that respect, I give my Asian dates an A+, and the white guys gets a B-.
Ginnie14
10:35 pm | Dec 08, 2008Ooops, I meant to say “and NOT as if they are being chased by a hungry dog.” Anyways, I failed the spelling test :p
Mondega
12:34 am | Oct 22, 2009this article is on point! i feel like taking a piece of it and using for my facebook quotes ahaha… foreal. u just earned 200 cool points!
peace,