Roundtable Discussion with the Asian Playboy
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After this blog post, I am officially taking a break from activism, blogging, and all things related for the next week and a half. I have been working overtime for the past month with three events, and everyone has to recharge from time to time. My time is now.
So the last Fallout Central Podcast took place on Sunday. You can download it here. It was a roundtable discussion with me, the Asian Playboy, and the four Fallout Central hosts, three of whom had taken the Pick Up (aka “How to Get Girlz”) course (it sounded like Kwak said that Albert had taken it), and one of whom has a wife who supposedly greatly respects the Asian Playboy. For those who are new to this site, the Asian Playboy is kind of like an Asian “Hitch;” he teaches Asian men to pick up women. He gets mixed reviews when he comes to this site; guys like Rebel respect him, while guys like Xian knock him around, and gals like Box beat him up, slap him, and kick the shit out of him. But it’s all good. Most of his detractors, from what I’ve seen, are not against what he does, but most of us don’t see what he does as a form of empowerment. As I mention in the podcast, it’s low brow.
William, the moderator and former producer of Fallout Central (which is now under new management), is now a certified “pick up” coach under Playboy and is running a new site called betterasianman.com which promotes the same stuff, but he was a fair moderator, and he let me say everything I wanted to say. Kwak and Albert, who had also taken the course, were also fair. You can listen to the podcast and hear just about all my thoughts on the subject.
The only thing I might elaborate upon is the “certain segment” of the population that I kept referring to. APB and I both agreed that his services are only geared towards a certain segment of the population–guys that have real problems with women. APB himself talked about a 40 year old unattractive Filipino guy who studied with him and was able to attract women for what seemed to be the very first time in his life. I can’t imagine going through that metamorphosis at the age of 40; this guy has real problems. If you look at APB’s site, you can see guys who are so proud of their ability to actually get sex that they post pictures and stories of the women they score with, with or without their consent. (Read some of “Johnny Wolf’s” posts–I quote some of his disturbing writings in the podcast.). For some of these guys, APB has shown them the promised land of actually getting women, and he is a hero to them. Read his blog, and you’ll see guys who define their entire self-worth by how many people they sleep with. (and yes, it’s a numbers thing rather than a quality thing–the guys don’t seem selective at all, although given their situation, maybe they shouldn’t be.)
The only point I would have made is that philosophically it is unlikely that the certain segment of the population to whom APB caters will be able to create lasting change in society. I don’t want to be judgmental, but if a person has trouble talking to women at the age of 40, it’s unlikely that he will be able to create anything new. He has lived his entire life defensively, and it will take a small miracle to become the kind of person who can lead other people to greatness. From a social standpoint, this is why a focus on intellectual and artistic endeavors yields greater results than anything pick-up related.
In any case, I don’t disagree with what APB does. Certain people obviously pay for the service, and if it makes them happy, so be it–he’s providing something that they want, and for the most part, even though it’s extremely tacky, it’s probably clean. Just don’t call it activism.
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howstrange
3:25 am | Jul 22, 2008my main problem with him is that he stereotypes AM in order to make money. He says stuff like AM are wusses, that’s why you need to learn from me. AM are conditioned to be whiteboy ass lickers, but not me, look how I rule the kingdom of IR. I have the secrets for you socially inept men. You doubt me? Typical response from the whipped who will marry the first person they’ve slept with. on and on and on.
AsianBGirl
5:39 pm | Jul 22, 2008That’s a lot of insecurity in this podcast. Or maybe I’m just being an asshole.
Ike
6:28 pm | Jul 22, 2008Whoa, for a second there, when you said “wife”, I thought Albert had gone and gotten married. But upon checking their page, I realized you were probably talking about Chris.
RebelAzn
2:35 pm | Jul 23, 2008Good discussion Jaehwan. I think I understand where they are coming from. To me they are just teaching Asian men how to communicate with women. Yes some guys will take it too far and thinking getting chicks in bed is the #1 thing in life, but I think it might actually help some others that really don’t have a clue due to lifetime exposure to the USA media. They don’t teach morality, which I understand. I guess pictures are part of “marketing” to show their success rate or actual proof their methods work. Also, I think you really have to do it in order to believe in yourself hence the field test.
Regardless, I think courses like these are much needed in that many Asian men do face completely different set of issues than other men in America. I don’t believe writing new literature or whatever will help out Asian men who are having identity issues. Until someone comes out with a better course, it is what it is and action speaks louder than words.
evil_FUX
5:42 pm | Jul 23, 2008No, asianbgirl, you’re not.
RebelAzn
6:07 pm | Jul 23, 2008Well most people are insecure one way or another. Confidence is not something developed over night. You have to have experience in things to develop confidence.
Frankly, the biggest issue I have seen with most Asian American men is the mentality they developed growing up here. They internalized all the racism they have seen and that really fucked with their mentality and outlook on life. It really has a lot to do with mental issues. Either they learn to deprogram their brain or someone has to help them deprogram their brain.
Biggest thing I hear from women is Asian men just don’t approach them even when they are interested. I had conversations about this with white women, black women, Latino women and even Asian women about Asian men and they always said most Asian men just don’t approach them. WTF? I realize some of it is their upbringing and some of it is due to all the racism they experienced. In reality, most of it is mental and their own doing. Some guys develop this naturally and most don’t. Some of these guys need someone to kick them in the ass to jump start their confidence or whatever.
I have no idea what is the right solution or the right course. To me doing something is far more productive than reading and bitching only.
SoulSnax
6:14 pm | Jul 23, 2008I listened to the podcast (great discussion, BTW) and thought that maybe the Asian Playboy’s got a great thing going there. But jeezuz, after seeing that video (above) I’m a little skeptical. The dude looks so sleazy. Would you really trust someone like him to show you the ropes in pick-up? Furthermore, would you like someone like him to represent a sexually empowered Asian-American man? Perhaps despite his sleazy shortcomings, his ability to seduce women says something about his techniques. I don’t know. Now I’m curious.
SoulSnax
7:17 pm | Jul 23, 2008Regarding the question of whether their activity can be described as “activism”:
There’s no denying that many (if not most) of APB’s disciples are a bunch of sleazebags who use their newly-acquired skills simply for the sheer excitement of getting laid. Just look at his website. ugh.
But that’s where we need to make a distinction.
I’ve seen the new Better Asian Man website, and I’m glad to see that it’s not as sleazy as APB’s. I do believe/hope that people like William, and the rest of the FOC dudes use their APB skills with a greater purpose in mind. It is my hope that they do their best to project a positive image of the sexually-empowered Asian male. An Asian male who is not only masculine and sexual, but also respectful and responsible.
We need people like that, Asian-American men who evangelize and embody the idea of a sexually-empowered Asian man in the real world, in clubs, lounges, out on the street… out in the trenches, so to speak.
We often complain about the image of Asian men in the media and in literature. But the truth is that we also need more sexually-empowered Asian-American men out there in the real world, so that casting directors and media producers won’t have a leg to stand on if they ever choose to exclude Asian actors from principal/leading roles.
It is my hope that people like William will be the real-world inspiration for more sexually-empowered Asian-American characters in media and literature. And then, with more positive images of the Asian-American Man in media and literature, young, coming-of-age Asian-American boys will have appropriate role models, and so on… It has to start somewhere. Not only must we break the cycle. We must reconstruct it. And that’s why I think that this this crazy “pickup artist” activity CAN be activism, though not in the uppity, highbrow, ivory tower sense.
Asian-American activism is a war against a homogenous hegemony that needs to be fought on all fronts. Anyone who says that Asian-American activism can only be waged on an “intellectual and artistic” level is living in an ivory tower.
“Just don’t call it activism”?? That’s almost like saying “gays can have domestic partnerships if they want, just don’t call it marriage.” C’mon Jaehwan. I know you’re a better person than that!
VibeDaddy
7:45 pm | Jul 23, 2008I have my doubts about many so-called “pickup instructors”. Many of them exaggerate or outright lie (http://www.seduction-chronicles.net/2008/04/22/stephen-nash-and-extramask-26-talk-on-rsd-project-hollywood-neil-strauss-and-more/). Now that they get results, it’s because of the lifestyle that their students support.
As far as it goes for the students for most of these companies, just snoop around. You’ll likely notice that those who get what they want had the necessary assetts to begin with– they only needed minor things fixed and a little push.
The rest seem to get only a temporary high. Then they go back home to struggle with the same shit over and over, thinking that some day they’ll have a breakthrough.
nightshade
7:49 pm | Jul 23, 2008So…why does William’s website feature a cartoon of all white women, with one light-skinned black chick? Sigh.
Anyhow, I may not agree with the one PUA scene, but I suppose if it’s working for a lot of guys, and they do grow, well, it’s a part of the health of the community.
I’ll just try not to be a bitch and laugh at the bad outfits or the advice that sometimes borders on the misogynistic. We all have to start somewhere, right? It’s long as guys don’t get stuck in one place and end up being as sad as some CCB chicks, any attempt at self-improvement and identity formation is the beginning of understanding oneself and perhaps will lead to empathy and compassion.
ellencho
8:06 pm | Jul 23, 2008I see activism the way I see art. There’s no strict definition for what is considered “art” but it’s possible for one to decide that some art is more relevant, or better than other art. For example, Jaehwan is an asian american activist - he cares about uplifting and supporting Asians and Asian American culture and people. APB’s brand of activism is more about providing support and direction for emotionally stunted Asian men for a profit. Whether one is more relevant, or better than the other is for you to decide for yourself.
VibeDaddy
8:58 pm | Jul 23, 2008Getting back to the OP’s point, I wouldn’t classify what the Playboy does as activism. He’s not fighting for Asian men; he’s out to make a buck.
However, IF it does help struggling Asian men get a sex life and be happier, it IS a sort of personal empowerment for those men.
RebelAzn
9:14 pm | Jul 23, 2008Well some of you probably don’t agree with their approach or whatever, but the fact of the matter is it forces these guys out of their comfort zone and actually do something. Their approaches might be questionable, but actions do speak louder than words. I am sure every guy knows what’s the difference between taking advantage of a girl vs. trying to take her home to meet the mom. In that respect, it is not those PUA’s job to teach you the ethics.
Perhaps bunch of women should do these type of classes for these guys. Bunch of Asian women teaching Asian men how to deal with women won’t be a bad thing and I think there could be a big market for it. Maybe a class from a female’s perspective would be far more effective. Of course, they gonna need some serious field lessons since that’s where they actually learn. Since every girl I have ever dated has tried to “train” me one way or another, why not just formalize the damn thing and women can have a say in what they are looking for.
Xian
10:32 pm | Jul 23, 2008I’ll just try not to be a bitch and laugh at the bad outfits or the advice that sometimes borders on the misogynistic. We all have to start somewhere, right? It’s long as guys don’t get stuck in one place and end up being as sad as some CCB chicks, any attempt at self-improvement and identity formation is the beginning of understanding oneself and perhaps will lead to empathy and compassion.
APB’s brand of activism is more about providing support and direction for emotionally stunted Asian men for a profit.
I understand that you all are going the peace offering route here, but I’m not sure it’s appropriate.
I don’t see development of personal identity when I hear the actual details of the instruction–it just looks like self-hate and cribbing of Vince Vaughn’s fake playbook and trying to replace actual confidence and competence with “technique” (translation: reading Women are from Mars, Men are from Uranus backwards).
I don’t see “support and direction”, I see enabling of pathological/misogynistic tendencies.
If you want to learn to be a martial artist, going out and finding some instruction and putting effort into it helps. Going out and buying a collectors’ edition DVD of “Kill Bill 2″ does not.
Being “pointed in the right direction” may help, but being pointed at someone with breasts and turned loose with cliched stereotypes seems to foster new bad habits rather than heal the old ones.
minorTruths
11:00 pm | Jul 23, 2008nightshade, funny how I analyzed the cartoon too. But I have to disagree. When I look at William’s website’s cartoon frontpage, I do not see all white women with one light skinned black chick. I actually see two asian chicks, one latino chick, one “light skinned” black chick, and one white chick. The chick in the pink evening gown is an Asian chick. The chick with the spikey blond hair sitting at the back table with a drink is also an Asian chick. She just bleach and dyed her hair blond. The chick accompanying her at the table is the light skinned chick you speak of. It might be the lighting over the table that’s throwing her skin color off a little bit, but I assure you…she’s the black chick. The chick in the blue evening gown is the latina. Her flamingo dancing hips gave her away. The white chick is of course the one in the middel.
The one white chick is right smack in the center in the foreground while the other chicks are in the background. So it you could still easily interpret that the white chick is at the top of some hierarchy.
However, if you pay closer attention and read between the pixels, you will see the chick who is arguably as Asian is standing on what appears to be a stage. The Asian chick standing at the center of the stage of course symbolizes that Asian women are at the top of the aforementioned hierarchy. They play the most vital and integral role in Asian men empowerment. So there you go…Asian men impowerment all the way and it has nothing to do with white chicks. Ha!
Candide
11:17 pm | Jul 23, 2008I disagree with Asian Playboy’s approach too (for different reasons than the ones F44 folks have) but let’s hear the true activists’ solution and plan of actions to the sexual empowerment of Asian males. We’re tired of hearing just criticisms, intellectual wankfest and bitching about how other people’s way is shit.
evil_FUX
12:07 am | Jul 24, 2008Christ on a stick….I hope that was a bad attempt at satire or a joke minorTruths.
minorTruths
12:19 am | Jul 24, 2008LOL!…well, apparently it is evil_fux since you have to even question it. Damn, I put the “Ha!” at the end just to hedge against such an event. I’ll try better next time.
evil_FUX
12:51 am | Jul 24, 2008Hahaha sorry man. I wasn’t sure if that “Ha!” was a jab at nightshade.
kalbi
3:43 pm | Jul 24, 2008It’s probably true that this is more of a business for APB than anything else. But I’m sure that he also cares about Asian-male empowerment too, on some level. So maybe you can call him an ‘Asian Male Activist’ instead.
I am also in agreement with SoulSnax that the ‘academic arrogance’ of the some of the 44s is counter-productive to the ultimate goal. The world is not an Ivy-League campus, so don’t expect it to follow your lofty rules and ideals. It’s an imperfect place, and at times you have to go with less-than-perfect, but workable solutions.
lopan
5:17 pm | Jul 24, 2008Sometimes we ARE too smart for our own good…
buttermilkwiseman
9:11 pm | Jul 24, 2008I was about to regurgitate what somebody(?) said earlier.
But I realized it hardly matters at this point, because I doubt 98.9% of the AA community has even heard of APB, let alone give a crap.
Xian
9:36 pm | Jul 24, 2008I agree entirely, but there is a long distance between
“less-than-perfect” and “completely and utterly counterproductive”.
THX1138
7:19 am | Jul 25, 2008This is an interesting topic as it touches upon a lot of important touchstone social issues in the Asian American community like (male) identity development, sexuality, and even IR dating.
I don’t know, however, if APB’s method is the best way to go about dealing with these issues, as it is problematic in how it treats women. But as people have said, it’s easy to criticize afar from the world of intellectual abstractions, without offering a concrete alternative.
Some of the comments in the old thread on this website make good suggestions like the point that Asian American identity development and sexuality could be addressed with both genders together in a program, rather than in some kind of PUA fashion.
Are there any Asian American psychologists doing work in this area? They would be one group that would have the expertise and experience to design a concrete program that helps Asian American men and women develop healthier identities and sexualities in the face of the Orientalist culture that surrounds us.
“Perhaps bunch of women should do these type of classes for these guys. Bunch of Asian women teaching Asian men how to deal with women won’t be a bad thing and I think there could be a big market for it. Maybe a class from a female’s perspective would be far more effective.”
On a lighter note, how about hiring these two young sistas in the video below to teach a workshop on asserting what a BetterAsianMan.com calls an Asian male sexual identity? ;)
http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=12
AsianBGirl
10:32 am | Jul 25, 2008“Are there any Asian American psychologists doing work in this area? They would be one group that would have the expertise and experience to design a concrete program that helps Asian American men and women develop healthier identities and sexualities in the face of the Orientalist culture that surrounds us.”
That I agree we most DEFINITELY need. If only I was still a Psych major. -_-
kalbi
12:22 pm | Jul 25, 2008I think that Asian female instructors would have to be CAREFULLY selected and scrutinized for their qualifications. We don’t want an army of sheep, excuse me, women - feeding hapless male students Hallmark platitudes such as “just be yourself”, “she has to love you for what you are on the inside, your appearance doesn’t matter”, “love is (color)blind”, “buy her flowers, tell her how much you love her, and treat her like a princess”.
The world of dating is a MAJOR gray-zone, let’s not forget that, people. There are men AND women (I can’t stress this enough, also women) who don’t play nice and weave a web of deception in the dating game, and clueless Asian guys must be properly informed of this matter. To mentally castrate Asian men further with asinine and practically inapplicable dating theory would be anathema to the original goal of equipping Asian men for the larger dating world.
nightshade
4:23 pm | Jul 25, 2008Nightshade’s free tips on how to get the girl:
1. Bathe every day. If you have facial hair, spend some time trimming. If a chick is going to groom her vagina, you’d better be willing to make the face on your face look cared for.
2. Do not talk about feminism on a date. If you do talk about feminism on a date, do not mention anything about, “Does this mean you don’t shave your armpits.” Or, “You’re so pwned because you want children!”
3. Have something interesting to say. This requires having actual interests besides getting pussy. If pussy is your main goal, stick to loud clubs with low lighting and have a large supply of condoms on hand. For all other guys, read a book. Join Toastmasters if you’re afraid of public speaking. (LOL, I met a Chinese Malay with a white girlfriend at a wedding the other day–so it worked for him. It could work for you too.)
4. Build on what you have. This is not BE YOURSELF, but enhance the best parts of yourself. It’s like writing a resume or going on a job interview: what are your best points and how can you get this across when you meet a girl without coming off as arrogant? This does not mean you should go up to a girl and say, “I make 100K a year. I have a giant dick!” Use your brain and judgement and really be honest with yourself when you’re thinking about what’s great about you.
5. Study how men who girls love carry themselves. I recommend apeing the methods of Jay Chou. Granted, I am biased because I love Jay Chou. But seriously, watch how he does shy and quiet in Andrew Lau’s Initial D and you’ll see a master at work. I mean, even in shitty Taiwanese gangster clothes, he looks wicked:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gNDOmc0J3w
That, my friends, is just diao.
nightshade
4:24 pm | Jul 25, 2008Hahaha, I meant “hair on your face” in point one.
kwak76
6:24 pm | Jul 25, 2008“From a social standpoint, this is why a focus on intellectual and artistic endeavors yields greater results than anything pick-up related.”
Jaehwan
I remember from the pod-cast that Jaehwan said something in subject of a intellectual development and that Asian man have to tell their “stories” for people to better understand the issues that faces Asian men. I remember way back in College picking up a book called “Where the Body Meets Memory: An Odyssey of Race , Sexuality and Identity “, written by Asian author David Mura.
I read most of the book but could not finish it because it hit so close to home. For those of you that never read it I advise you to get it and you might understand the Asian American man story better.
Now before someone tell me that David Mura story is only his I have to remind you that he experience the same identity confusion and sexual issue that many Asian American men experience at one time or the other.
When I mean by sexual issues I don’t mean by being straight or gay but what I mean by is being a sexual being or not. In America Asian men are not consider a sexual being and in many ways and in a hurtful way Asian women also accepts this belief and therefore rejects Asian men.
David Mura in his book tries to find his sexual self by either going after white women or trying to fit into the asexual role that was handed to him. Read the book to better understand what I mean.
Within the Asian American community I think we have a dysfunction and the root cause is sexuality and again I don’t mean by being gay or straight.
What I see APB offering is helping Asian men finding the confidence within themselves to express their sexual self. In other words it’s OK for Asian men to do the fucking. I agree with Will that it is low brow and can be tacky but at the same time liberating.
Some of you may disagree with me but I still meet a fair number of Asian American men who accepts the role that was handed to them. In other words the asexual role. I meet Asian guys who are college graduate and have good job and money but never been with a woman.
I do agree with Jaehwan that some of these guys that took the boot camp may become overkill with their experience and post their sexual experience with a lack of respect to woman. However, for some of these guys it’s like a kid who never had candy before and all of sudden is in a candy store.
Just maybe activism is too strong a word for what APB is offering but I don’t see nothing else out there that has to address the dysfunction that Asian American men have regarding sexual confidence.
kwak76
6:33 pm | Jul 25, 2008buttermilkwiseman,
“But I realized it hardly matters at this point, because I doubt 98.9% of the AA community has even heard of APB, let alone give a crap.”
Depending upon the age group your talking to I think the younger AA community probably never even heard Asian activist like Frank Chin or even know what a Kingston is. Heck if I go out in the street now and grab 10 Asian people and ask them have you heard of the 44’s or model minority? I bet many never heard of these sites to.
kwak76
6:40 pm | Jul 25, 2008I also have to add it is part of development for some of these guys. Once they have the sexual confidence and been with women. They slow down and start looking at things deeper.
It’s kind of like you have a young frat boy in college sleeping around with different woman and acting like a pig but eventually grows out of it. I mean some cases they don’t grow out of it but many do.
It same thing with these guys who took the boot camp. At first they feel so liberated because they never done this before . Sow their wild oats but realize that it’s just superficial and grow up.
nskripchun
9:48 am | Jul 26, 2008>Nightshade’s free tips on how to get the girl:
Sounds like NS ready to have a bootcamp and start making some MONEY! Though, if it’s in Canadian dollars, all us folks here in the good ‘ol USA are screwed.
But yeah… interesting comments everyone.
evil_FUX
2:48 pm | Jul 26, 2008Kwak, I don’t think anyone wants to take these guys’ ability to explore their sexuality. With that said…
kwak76
10:22 am | Jul 28, 2008evil,
sometimes you lose me.
Ike
11:17 pm | Jul 28, 2008Don’t mention the word “feminism”, but it’s okay to bring up feminist ideals or critiques on the patriarchy - but only if you really mean it.
Oh, and the usual PUA tricks will get you hot women, but not good women.