Obama says Asians are short
35 Responses | Leave a Comment »
Thanks to Jun from 8Asians who posted this.
At around 3:00 into this interview with Jimmy Kimmel, Kimmel asks if he can dunk, and Obama says:
There’s pretty good basketball in Hawaii but the only thing is, since obviously there are a lot of folks from Asian ancestry in Hawaii, generally the teams aren’t as tall. So I was going down and posting up quite a bit.
Not too long ago, the 44’s had a similar discussion on the “short Asian” stereotypes here.
I am disappointed that Obama would say something like this, much as I was disappointed when he responded to 80/20. On the 8A website, I mentioned that maybe it’s a Hawaii thing; I’ve noticed that people from Hawaii have a different way of talking about race as people on the Mainland. One would still think that Obama would’ve been more sensitive to the mainland issues here. From the video, it looks like he wasn’t trying to make a joke, but it’s a bit strange that a major party nominee would say this, especially given the people of different colors within his family tree.
Anyway, it won’t change my vote, but it does make me think about how far society needs to progress in talking about Asian American race issues.
Leave a Comment »
Share
Entries (RSS)
Dialectic
6:27 pm | Jun 16, 2008Totally the opposite position, here. I think it’s ok he says this, because it’s true. Obama’s all about telling it like it is; in the same way he speaks about Blacks needing to be responsible for their condition, he can also speak about how we are, on average shorter. It’s ok (and anyway, it’s changing).
Now that society has been appropriately sensitized to race, gender, sexual, etc. issues, it needs to become less sensitive (or intelligently sensitive) about remarks made in good faith, not more.
groinpull
7:03 pm | Jun 16, 2008awesome, so basically everyone from that gina carano thread was a moron except me. i feel great.
SamuraiJack
7:33 pm | Jun 16, 2008Sorry guys, but what he said was bullshit.
Statistically, Asians are shorter, but being Asian has nothing to do with being short. So groinpull, if you’re short or have a short dick, blame it on your parents, but don’t blame it on being Asian.
This is like if I became valedictorian of a black-dominated school - I can say,
“There’s some pretty smart people at my school, but the only thing is, since obviously there are a lot of black folks at my school, generally the students aren’t that smart.”
Hey it’s true, isn’t it? No, because while it’s true that blacks have lower IQ scores, it’s not true that being black has anything to do with being less smart.
Same thing for Asians - we shouldn’t allow these statements to be made, since they perpetuate false stereotypes. Sure he said it in good faith, but many comments in good faith have negative consequences.
groinpull
9:50 pm | Jun 16, 2008he can say it until asians stop being shorter. he obviously can’t say it if asians are taller than everyone else. so while being asian doesn’t always = being short, it’s coming from a place of truth and NOT ignorance.
and why is it bullshit because it’s true? it’s not like he said it in a derogatory way. basically EVERYONE has the impression that Asians are short and there’s a good reason for that. It’s not like he said Asians are faggots or something.
groinpull
9:54 pm | Jun 16, 2008And the guy is a fucking icon on F44. So while everything else he says is okay one thing he says is ‘bullshit’ because it makes us asian guys feel bad?
Statistically, Asians are shorter, but being Asian has nothing to do with being short. So groinpull, if you’re short or have a short dick, blame it on your parents, but don’t blame it on being Asian
that’s just retarded reasoning.
etain
10:23 pm | Jun 16, 2008I agree with SamuraiJack, and think his comparison is spot on.
I was an anthropology major and this current conversation about Asians and size is a mirror of 19th century conversations about blacks and intelligence. Statistically speaking blacks were underperforming intellectually by every single measure. Scientists even used phrenology, aka skull science, to “scientifically” prove that blacks were less mentally capable. They found that statistically speaking black skulls were smaller than white skulls, along with being shaped differently, and literally wrote the book on black stupidity.
When confronted by abolitionists and progressives, they responded that they were not being racist, they were only pointing out the truth. Today we look back and can see what racist bullshit all this was.
How is what’s currently happening with Asians and size any different? Statistically Asians are smaller on average and a bunch of people are throwing out proof to validate those observations. When confronted with the race card those guys just throw up their hands and claim that they’re only acting in the name of truth, nothing else.
One hundred years later I hope everyone will look back and see what racist bullshit this all is.
Until then, a few things I want to say:
1) Statistically, on average, Asians are smaller than whites. I’ll concede this much.
2) Til the day I die I will not concede that this is somehow hard-wired into the universe’s time-space continuum. It’s environmental and circumstantial, not biological and genetic.
The problem with both of these examples, i.e. blacks and intelligence and Asians and size, isn’t that characteristics are ascribed to races, it’s that those characteristics are imbued with social value.
Nowadays we understand the sensitivity we must use in commenting on someone’s mental ability. Although there is nothing wrong per se with being stupid, everyone acknowledges that being smart has more much social value than being stupid. Thus, we also recognize the danger and malice of labeling one group of people as inherently dumber than the other, which is why we try not to do it (at least publicly). It’s not just a matter of I have spots and you have stripes. It’s you suck and I don’t.
This was why all the 19th century (and continuing) shit about blacks being stupid is racist. It’s because society took value away from them environmentally and then had the nerve to try and convince everyone that “it’s just the way it is.”
The exact same thing is happening now with respect to Asians and size. The only difference is that somehow people don’t get that size has social value. They’re still convinced that size is just spots and stripes. It’s not! And everyone knows it sub-consciously. Especially for males, bigger is better in everything and everywhere. When society labels us as small, it rips away value from us, and then they have the nerve to tell everyone “it’s just the way it is.”
That’s why it’s racist. One group uses its extant power to socially elevate itself while stepping on another. We recognize it now with intelligence. We refuse to recognize it with size.
Imagine if, instead of what she said about Asians, Gina Carano got a comment about dumb people and said, “Wow, you’ve just offended the black community and retards.” First, she would never say it because she knows it’s racist. Second, if she did she’d be exiled to some remote ass island with a monster and a hatch or some shit because everyone else knows it’s racist.
150 years ago I bet white people were talking the exact same way about blacks and intelligence. They were forced to give that up so now they’re talking about us and size. They don’t want to give that up because, if they’re not smarter, and they’re not bigger, then what are they? Just like everyone else? Oh fuck!
jaehwan
12:33 am | Jun 17, 2008Groinpull,
I edited your last comment. I usually never edit comments, but remarks about my wife and kid are not acceptable.
Carry on.
Dialectic
12:35 am | Jun 17, 2008Even though groinpull is an asshole, I’m with him on this; Obama didn’t say that being Asian causes shortness, that Asians are short by their nature, just that Asians are shorter, which they are.
Have you guys ever been to Asia? Have you looked around Chinatown? I’m a medium in the U.S. and a fucking extra-large or beyond in Taiwan and Japan.
This is the fallacy of the pure “anti-stereotype” stance, and the subsequent hyper-sensitivity it causes. It’s ok to make generalizations in good faith based on fact.
Until Obama says that he destroyed all Asians in the change room with his massive dick, I’m ok with this.
jaehwan
12:51 am | Jun 17, 2008D,
The difference is what Obama stands for. I’d have no problem with a geneticist talking about short Asians, but a future President of the United States? He doesn’t just answer to his own view of things; he’s also supposed to inspire people, and linking shortness with Asians is just not right. It’s similar to the James Watson thing. These people are not just scientists; they’re leaders who represent a whole lot more than just science or policy.
Not to mention the fact that there are a lot of dumb people who listen to these leaders and absorb whatever they say. Remember last year on America’s Next Top Model (I don’t watch it, but it was all over the internet) where the Asian model said that she didn’t date Asian men because they were short? When you link up a physical “deficiency” (and it is considered a deficiency in Western culture) with a race, it’s problematic.
You yourself are a case in point. In terms of height, you are an average American. Why should your “Asian ancestry”–which is the exact term that Obama used–be linked to shortness? Is it right that your ancestry be linked with a negative term (short, small, midget) while other people’s ancestry be linked with positive terms (height, tall, giant, pillar)?
SJ is spot on with his comparison of black students. Why should it not be okay to link mental deficiency with one race but be perfectly okay to link physical deficiency with another?
I say let’s be equal. Obama is still the best candidate, but let’s not excuse his linkage with race with deficiency, especially since we don’t have very many Asian American public figures to counter whatever stereotypes they throw our way.
jaehwan
12:56 am | Jun 17, 2008By the way, groinpull, you can tell me to go play with a toilet plunger and fuck myself. I don’t edit comments like that. But my wife and child have nothing to do with anything that I’ve presented on this blog, and they’re quite separate from my own political views. So let’s at least observe that one area of civility. Peace.
jaehwan
1:04 am | Jun 17, 2008Okay, Etain’s comment just posted. I agree with him.
evil_FUX
1:26 am | Jun 17, 2008I agree with D in that Obama wasn’t trying to be an asshole. His comment was as Jun said, to illustrate that he doesn’t dunk. It’s not hurtful in the sense, in my mind, as some dude coming out and saying people of Asian ancestry are all midgets.
As for the generalization, which Asians? If you’re talking about SE Asians from the last known recorded data which was back in the early 90’s you can make the claim, but then what about S. Koreans? Comparing the data of them with the last researched data for peeps in the US, the S. Koreans pretty much the same average height. Besides it’s such a moot point because height is a combo of genetics, lifestyle/diet, and environment.
RebelAzn
2:37 am | Jun 17, 2008Man are we still on this conversation? Sorry making wide comment like that about all Asians are retarded, even for Obama.
Here is a link to average human heights around the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height
Granted, many Asian countries on average are shorter but making a statement all Asians are short is pretty retarded. Saying all white people are tall is retarded too. Have you guys been to Spain or Italy? There are a ton of short guys there. Brazil too. Human height has a lot to do with nutrition. If you are a midget and you blame it on Asian, then you are just igorant.
Average height for Japanese male before WWII was like 5′5″. Now it is like 5′8″. You think people just magically got taller? Have you guys been to old England castles? I have to bend my whole head just to get through the door cause average male height back then was just like 5′3″ or 5′4″ or something like that.
Asians are getting taller due to better diet. People in South Korea and Japan are getting taller. Americans are not getting taller anymore except they are getting fatter.
So next time when someone says all Whites or all Asians they have to be clear what they are talking about. If they are talking about current Vietnamese or Indonesians, yeah that might be true but it is not true for all Chinese, Japanese or Koreans. If you think all blacks are tall, then you need to look at average height of African countries. Gee, you think food has something to do with it?
SamuraiJack
3:07 am | Jun 17, 2008I think everyone here agrees that Obama wasn’t trying to be an asshole.
The problem is that, despite his intentions, his words reinforce the idea that Asians are short by nature. If he really thought that there was no genetic connection between being Asian and being short, then he wouldn’t have mentioned it at all.
And for those who are arguing for “truth”, please tell us how it is different from saying black people are stupid, even with the best intentions?
The problem with these statements is that it *implies* a causal relationship. It’s like saying global warming is caused by the decrease in the number of pirates in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confounding
The more this statistical relationship is spoken publicly without mentioning the real factors (diet, environment), the more people, including Asians, will believe it’s a causal relationship.
Makulita
3:44 am | Jun 17, 2008Its them hormone laden McDonald’s food. Or… I guess in D’s case… them hormone laden Tim’s Donuts’ food?
Sidenote: If you don’t fucking know how to blast someone on the internets– don’t fucking do it, noobsauce.
MinorityMilitant
3:58 pm | Jun 17, 2008In defense of Obama, this guy grew up with a bunch of Asians. The man probably thinks he’s Asian for all I know. He’s at a comfort level with Asians/Asian Americans and he didn’t have any intentions behind it. I’m sure. He just somehow made a comment that should have never been spewed on national television.
But on the subject of Asians being smaller than Whites, statistically, it is true to an extent. That doesn’t mean all Asians are short and have small dicks. I think that’s the underlying innuendo here when we speak of short. How short the Asian man’s dick really is. And from my experience being in the service and having to shower (just bootcamp) with all kinds of people of different races, the Asian man’s dick is measures up pretty well.
I don’t mean to sound like a homo or anything, because I’m not, but there are a lot of hung Asian brothers out there laying the pipe and spreading the the AC (Asian Cock). And sure, you can probably say a lot of Asian men are small below the waistline. That’s fine. Just give us the balanced representation we yearn for.
Look, I’m just trying to break the animosity here because I think that’s where we’re leaning right now. I’ll go out on a limb and say the “short” conversation is really about the size of our dicks and not how “short” we are on the court.
I’m just trying to keep it real up in the rice paddies of these divided states.
Teknoman
7:25 pm | Jun 17, 2008I usually lurk here but WTF? Obama makes a racist comment about Asians being short and you guys look the other way because you’re in love with him. I was planning on voting for Obama in November but I’m not voting for that racist dipshit. I’m not voting for the other racist, McCain, either.
Liang
8:07 pm | Jun 17, 2008“awesome, so basically everyone from that gina carano thread was a moron except me. i feel great.”
Nope, groinpull. You’re still a moron. Right NOW, Asians are generally shorter on average than whites and blacks. This is the truth. However, like people have already mentioned, height is NOT an intrinsic feature of Asians. It is a feature heavily dependent on nutrition and physical activity…not race.
Plus Carano said, “you insulted the Asian community and little people”. If she really meant that as a joke, then that is WAY worse than Obama plainly stating that Hawaiian basketball teams are generally shorter.
Liang
8:11 pm | Jun 17, 2008But I also think that Obama’s comment was kind of inappropriate for a potential President to say on national TV. Like MinorityMilitant said, the dude may be really comfortable around Asians and was most likely not doing it to be an asshole, but imagine how the hicks watching this must have reacted. A statement like that would only confirm their ignorant stereotypes of Asians being 5′ tall samurai ninja geishas.
groinpull
8:31 pm | Jun 17, 2008you guys are fucking idiots as far as i’m concerned. being proud and keeping vigil against discrimination is a good thing but some of you are just goddamn delusional.
In that Gina Carano that I explained that there’s a good reason why she said what she said. Even the guy who brought up Pride Fighting (mobb deep or wtf) should know that none of the Japanese fighters above 155 did particularly well other than Saku, and the HW and MW belt were being passed down from one non-Asian to the next. I get all sorts of shit thrown my way and now that Obama says the exact same shit some of you punks are ‘backtracking’. Like that moron evil_fux.
Are we shorter and more slight?
“oh yeah yeah, it’s statistically true, but uh, he shouldn’t have said it cause he’s a presidential candidate”. That isn’t the point. We’re not debating who he is or what the ramifications of what he said. In fact, there are NO consequences to what he said because he didn’t change anyone’s minds about Asians.
Seriously fuck. No one is saying Asians don’t have potential to grow taller, NO ONE. No one has been debating about the science side of height but from a spectators POV, yes, it’s correct to say that Asians tend to be shorter and slighter. Who gives a fuck why it is or how AAs are getting taller. Too much fucking self denial and BS with some of you guys.
groinpull
8:37 pm | Jun 17, 2008Sorry for the language but it’s frustrating. Most of the world sees it like this. I can guarantee you that even people in Asia sees it the exact same way. And there’s nothing wrong with that IF it’s true.
What are we going to have delusions next? That Asian men are just as hairy as white men? That black women can grown long flowing locks just like white women? Fuck. Goddamn. It’s times like these that makes me realize why people think Asian guys are complete boneheads and can’t communicate worth shit. Way too much bullshit.
groinpull
8:39 pm | Jun 17, 2008Seriously. Now you go on blaming southeast Asians.
WTF. Christ. I’m done with you idiots. I’m done with F44 and Asian American activism. Way too much bullshit and denials. fuck this.
groinpull
8:41 pm | Jun 17, 2008From now on I’m supporting Jenn Fang. From what I’ve seen of you morons I think she’s got at least most of her shit correct. I hated her from a long time ago but the shit you guys make up stinks.
Later.
Dialectic
8:51 pm | Jun 17, 2008Just a note to Teknoman, you probably haven’t read my post on stereotyping, and you don’t understand the position of Lopan and I on “racism,” making statements on facts, and making racial jokes.
This was not a racist comment. The fact that you think so, and that you and others write in such an angry and offended tone about it is exactly why people of all races are getting fed up with race/sex/etc. discourse; it becomes a hypersensitive game of victimization. It’s extremely alienating.
Look, guys, if someone says something that isn’t factually true, or if someone says something that is true and is mean, they shouldn’t say it. Obama said something that is true, and that isn’t mean. No one is ascribing any “intrinsic” shortness to Asians, and he’s not saying that being short makes you inferior (although you will be disadvantaged at basketball, alas).
Finally, every single one of you, even the most P.C. of the bunch, generalize in some way about people and cultures and environments. In fact, it happens every time you call someone, or some piece of art, or some organization, “racist.” Everything is more complex than that. I could deconstruct every one of you in some way as a result, and call you some sort of “-ist” but I don’t because it’s retarded, and it’s ok to make generalizations, in good faith, based on fact.
Xian
10:22 pm | Jun 17, 2008I don’t think it was a good comment to make to a national audience, but I could give a shit. This guy is the progressive running for the Presidency of the U.S. I’m voting for him even if he wears yellow face and makes fun of my flat nose.
I also think it’s dumb to say that “better diet” is making Asians grow more. Hormone laced food fucks you up. You say it ain’t that bad, but it fucks you up good (thanks Sage). I mean, it’s not like I ever am saying, “Thank the Good Lord I’m 5′11″ not 5′7″! Now I’m going to have a great life, hurrah!”
Let’s be real–who would give up 10 years of your life to be two inches taller?
Lastly, I agree that playing “gotcha” over legalistic definitions of what is and isn’t racist is annoying. But the idea that an exasperation with discussion of race is due to this minor PC phenomenon is completely detached from history and contemporary social study. Mainstream institutions are racist. That’s why they don’t want to discuss race. Things were the same when there was little public voice for minorities to discuss racial grievances. To blame the fact that some people use their voices ignorantly for any backlash, is to legitimize one of the oldest white supremacist tools in the book–using a few ignorant voices to silence minority communities.
evil_FUX
10:29 pm | Jun 17, 2008I love it when people implode.
ZhuBaJie
11:34 pm | Jun 17, 2008I’m waiting to hear him say that an African American thinktank (or something similar) is not as smart. Because hey, statistically, blacks score lower on IQ tests and academic tests.
ZhuBaJie
11:35 pm | Jun 17, 2008Oh and by the way, I can see how Obama is marching the country towards racial unity and away from racial division.
Yes, that was sarcasm.
etain
1:00 am | Jun 18, 2008I think it’s possible to be racist without trying to be or even knowing it. In the grand scheme of things this is a pretty small deal, and the only reason we’re talking about it is because it was made publicly and by a presidential candidate who is supposed to embody racial progressiveness. Nevertheless, he’s not perfect, even in this respect, but I don’t hold that against him.
As I said before, pointing out the truth isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it’s the implications that render it harmful or harmless. When Obama says that generally Asians aren’t as tall, it isn’t a harmless statement. It’s only harmless because people hide behind a facade of height/size being neutral, even though we all sub-consciously know it’s not.
The statement “Asians aren’t as tall” automatically implies that Asians aren’t as tall simply because they’re Asian. It doesn’t matter if you and I know that this isn’t true, the vast majority of people in the world already think it’s true and this just reinforces that notion.
Greater amounts of height and size are equated with positive characteristics, such as physical attractiveness, strength, power, management potential, etc. By believing that Asians are inherently shorter and smaller, the corollary is made that Asians are also inherently less attractive, weaker, less powerful, and poor leaders.
This connection exists. I’m not trying to be PC or “overly racial.” People in this world automatically make these associations about Asians. Everyone will hide behind the “I’m not making fun of anyone, just pointing out a fact” argument, but by pointing out this fact, and believing that it’s simply inherent in nature, you do make fun of people.
Was Obama trying to hurt people? No. Did he? Yes. Do I blame him? No. Will I vote for him, still? Absolutely.
nightshade
1:03 am | Jun 18, 2008Why are you retards so obsessed with tallness?
jaehwan
1:28 am | Jun 18, 2008I like Etain’s comments. But I said that before. :)
Groinpull:
See ya!
blockthebox
2:41 am | Jun 18, 2008And this is why this post is at 30+ comments already — more than it deserves.
TimeTraveler
9:22 pm | Jun 18, 2008groinpull is still an idiot for believing midget is equal to short. I’m cool with Asians being assumed as short, but there’s a huge difference between “short” and “midget”.
So, for him to defend that Gina thread is a complete cretin without brain-cells.
TheMac
10:02 am | Jun 20, 2008“By believing that Asians are inherently shorter and smaller, the corollary is made that Asians are also inherently less attractive, weaker, less powerful, and poor leaders.”
I strongly agree with this. I don’t necessarily think non-Asians or individuals not interested in Asian issues make this connection, though.
TheMac
10:06 am | Jun 20, 2008“What are we going to have delusions next? That Asian men are just as hairy as white men? That black women can grown long flowing locks just like white women?”
But these beliefs are harmful when “hairy= masculine”, and “long flowing locks= beautiful”. The idea that black women don’t/can’t grow long hair is a real sore spot for the community, and leads to some people processing their own hair beyond reason, which of course is the reason it breaks. Different issue, though.
Anyway, I think something can be factual, but, when taken out of context, also be inappropriate.