Maxine Hong Kingston, Ignorance, and the Battle for Mainstream Recognition
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“What in G0d’s name??? They let ASIAN-MAN-HATER#2 Maxine Hong Kingston write a new introduction to one of the RARE humanizing portrayals of an Asian man as a s*xually-potent being??? WTF and HTF did THAT happen??? Shyt, why not let David Duke write a new intro to the Autobiography of Malcolm X for chrissakes???”
–”Krome” from Modelminority.com
The dialogue above is a classic from the Asian American blogosphere. I’ve seen it quoted a few times. This may be the first and only time you see a 44’s blog post link to mm.com, but I have to commend the commenter Krome for his insightful observation. While I wouldn’t condone the language that followed Krome’s quote above (which you can see in the link), I think he’s 100% right about the hypocrisy and/or ignorance of the book publishers. Considering the fact that Kingston has spent her entire career emasculating Asian men (through the aforementioned essay by our friend Krome), promoting a culture of pseudo-feminist narcissism (It takes a real egomaniac to name her autobiography “The Woman Warrior,” especially when she hasn’t even fought anyone or achieved anything of value), distorting important Chinese myths (Mulan and Yue Fei are two different characters), making up lies about Chinese culture (contrary to Kingston’s words, the Chinese words for “slave” and “woman” are not the same), and turning Asian American literature into a black hole that sucks the life out of our community rather than uplifts the level of intellect and thought of our people, it’s incredibly ironic and hypocritical that the publishers hired her to write the introduction to a book that goes against everything she has spent her career destroying. As Krome correctly implies, letting Kingston write a new intro to “The Lover” is like letting David Duke write a new intro to the Autobiography of Malcolm X. She just happens to be the same color as the people she oppresses.
Recognizing the indefensible lies that Kingston perpetuated about us, these days it seems that Kingston has very little support even among hardcore activists. Reappropriate Jenn, for example, who calls herself an Asian American feminist, usually deflects criticisms of Kingston by saying that there are other–therefore implying better–Asian American feminists, though Jenn still somewhat defends Kingston. She, of course, is right on the first part; wrong to defend Kingston though. AsianBGirl, Sargassosea, and Xian say the same, though without defending Kingston. They too are right.
Where some of us diverge, however, is on our ideas on how to best cope with a mainstream that is hostile towards our own recognition as human beings. We agree on facts, but we somewhat disagree on solutions. I say “somewhat” because we’re only slightly off. We probably agree on 95%, but the remaining 5% is the thesis of this post. Some feel that we need to simply find and identify the real feminists, while I think we need to find and identify the real feminists while attacking the power base of the fakes. It’s a 5% difference, but it’s significant.
Xian writes:
I think we need to waste less time and energy complaining about fake activists and spend more time strategically planning our real activism.
AsianBGirl says:
If it is the case that the majority of APIA feminism is filled with the hype of ideas that Kingston/Tan created, then I will definitely a support a change/redifining of APIA feminism. But in my personal experience, it’s been happening. The only difference is that unlike Kingston and Tan, they’re not acknowledged by white people.
I agree with both of them on the facts. I think Xian is correct in saying that we need to spend more time planning real activism, and I think AsianBGirl is correct in stating that the major difference between Kingston/Tan and others is the acknowledgement on the part of white people.
However, while I agree with Xian and AsianBgirl on the facts, I would probably take a slightly different approach when it comes to activism. (And I’m saying this with the temporality of internet discussion in mind–I hope they’ll consider the validity of my arguments and current stance). Given the fact that the toxic Kingstonian “feminism” is mainstream and supported by mainstream institutions, I don’t think it’s enough to simply concentrate on the good while ignoring the bad. We need to stamp it out and take over the mainstream. Working by ourselves is good for the time being, but ultimately it’s not enough, and we should always keep the final goal of conquering the mainstream in mind.
Here’s where we agree (I don’t know if everyone agrees on #2, but I haven’t yet heard any substantial counter-arguments):
1. Kingstonism is mainstream which means that it’s the form of Asian American Feminism most accepted by white folk.
2. Kingstonism is a terrible form of feminism and doesn’t accomplish anything.
3. There are real Asian American feminists out there.
Here’s where we disagree. Xian writes:
It’s my firm believe that if you build “it” (an equitable social justice ideology) they will come.
There is no need to actively destroy mainstream ideas. We merely complete our comprehensive, inclusive agenda, and do outreach.
While I agree with Xian that we need to build it, practically I think we have to go after mainstream coverage. Even if we decide to start small, part of our goals should focus on destroying that which poisons us. We should be intent on destroying mainstream ideas and replacing them with our own so that we can harness that institutional support. My reasoning is simple. Given the reach of the mainstream–through broadcast media, mainstream news outlets, influence in the universities, along with the paid ivory tower figureheads who promote Kingstonism–there is no way that a small band of disparate feminists can maximize their efficiency in getting the message out without taking aim at the mainstream and seeking mainstream support. We eventually want the funding, the airwaves, and the media coverage. Even here as we speak and learn, we haven’t yet identified any strong Asian American feminists who are creating the intellectual ideas that can liberate Asian American women from Kingstonian orientalism. Why is it so hard to find them? It’s because we are fighting against the tide of the mainstream. We shouldn’t be fighting against the tide. The tide should be supporting us. If we don’t have the goal of changing the tide, we’ll always be swimming upstream. As Noam Chomsky said, the media “manufactures consent” with its pervasiveness and repetition. While we need to build up the real feminists, we also need to stop the fakes and liars.
I think it’s clear: Real feminists can’t live side by side with the Kingstonians because our ideas don’t mesh well with one another. We promote truth; Kingstonism promotes lies and distortions. We celebrate ourselves; Kingstonism celebrates the supposed rescuing of Asian culture by Western culture. We promote compassion; Kingstonism promotes narcissism.
Xian is right in that we need to concentrate on the positive. We need to organize people like Catty, himself, AsianBgirl, Sargasso, Jade, and Nightshade so that we can take our intellectual capital and create something big. On the other hand, our end goal should be to capture the mainstream coverage and to change the zeitgeist. And while we’re building up our current capital, we should draw the line right now: we’re not Kingstonian.
Think about civil rights hero Martin Luther King. When he filled up those jails in Birmingham with people, he wasn’t trying to create a spectacle that only black people would see. He wasn’t trying to prove to black people that racism existed. They already knew that. He was trying to enter the conscience of every American and to show that society needs change. We can start small, of course, but our goal should be clear from the very beginning; we want to throw off the shackles of the status quo because we’re not like them, and we want to force the mainstream to become like us. We’re truthful. We’re alive. We know right from wrong. There’s no reason for anyone who believes in equality to object to what we promote, and there’s no reason for them to mistake us for the other side.
Edit 6/12/08: “Feminism” removed from title.
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nightshade
3:37 am | Jun 09, 2008Er, this is getting kind of fascist.
nightshade
4:02 am | Jun 09, 2008What I mean to say is that the arguments here are really anti Integral Theory. How can an opinion be the truth? It’s an opinion. We don’t have the right to shut other people down just because we don’t agree with what they have to say.
Xian
8:41 am | Jun 09, 2008Yeah, I can’t agree. I would argue that this is exactly what BOTH sides are trying to do right now.
The end goal, of course, is to win. But I don’t think we have to “go to their countries, kill their leaders and force them to convert to Christianity” to win.
We must acknowledge the insecurities that mainstream ideologies appeal to. We should engage it thoughtfully with our strategic plan. But we can’t get bogged down in petty skirmishes–this is what the status quo excels at.
Most importantly, we must remember that we ARE like them. We will change throughout this struggle. We will hear and experience new perspectives that we have not integrated as of yet. We must model constructive, strategic and thoughtful growth.
Dr. King and every other member of the heroic movement didn’t win by going after white racism. They won by modeling fearless anti-racism. And over time, people wanted to be like them.
Now, every aversive racist and their momma says that they would have been on the front lines marching. We know that’s not the case. But we can work so it’s the cool kids everyone wants to be on the front lines again.
jaehwan
11:22 am | Jun 09, 2008Nightshade:
Actually I think this is exactly Integral Theory. The current people in the Ivory Towers are not presenting opinions; they’re presenting information that they present as facts. We’re not talking about opinions. If I say that the word for “slave” and “woman” is the same, it’s not an opinion. It either is or isn’t because it refers back to a historical truth. Claiming the position of universal truths is exactly the complaint that Integral Theory has with the mean green meme, the false assertion that that every truth is true except for the truth that claims it’s not.
If an anti-Semite can get thrown out of the university for claiming that the Holocaust never took place, why can’t we challenge people who make baseless accusations against Asian culture? If a guy like James Watson loses his job over claiming that one race is more intelligent than another, why isn’t it the case with those who misrepresent Asian Americans? We seem to be the only ones who don’t get assertive about truth.
This is my point. If other ethnicities can practice a form of cultural protection based on truth, why can’t we? This was exactly the problem that Dale Minami had with memorializing Mike Masaoka. How can we expect progress when we memorialize people who misrepresent truth?
Xian,
As King demonstrated, it’s not just about wanting to be there or saying that you want to be there. It’s about the temperament and the commitment to truth. People can respect it, but at the same time, there are some real responsibilities
What do you think of the fact that King, as he himself documented in “Why We Can’t Wait,” turned people away from marching with him? Isn’t there something we can learn from him?
jaehwan
11:55 am | Jun 09, 2008Sorry, I didn’t describe…King turned away those who he felt lacked the temperament to remain nonviolent.
nightshade
4:00 pm | Jun 09, 2008Integral Theory is based on developmental psychology. In order for someone to be able to reach a conclusion in a new plane of belief/thought, he or she must first pass through the earlier stages and exhaust those earlier stages of thought on his or her own terms. For some people, this development is quicker. For others…well, for others it may never quite happen. That’s a facet of the theory, from what I understand from reading A Theory of Everything.
Thus, the beliefs of Maxine Hong Kingston and her brand of feminists are part of the journey to reach a new way of thought. To say that diverging thought cannot coexist doesn’t work–it’s part of the process of gaining new insight.
This is not to say that Integral Theory condones anti-
Semites or misgoynists or racists. Rather, it’s to say that we don’t eradicate thought–we build upon it.
We are where we are because we can, for better or for worse, build on what Hong Kingston has done. I may disagree with her, but she has done important work. Yes, some of it is damaging. Yes, she has bad taste in new authors.
What are you hoping to accomplish? Because I don’t think these attacks on “feminism” are doing us much good.
jaehwan
4:33 pm | Jun 09, 2008I’m trying to establish truth as a being better than untruth. I’m reading “The Feminine Mystique” right now, and it’s all true. I’ve read Martin Luther King, and it’s all true. I’m saying that if black people and white women can start with truth, why can’t we? We still haven’t established truth as being important; the culture still focuses much on the whole idea that all truths are equal.
I’m not focusing just on Asian women either; I think it goes for Asian men as well.
I’ve not seen anyone build on anything Holocaust deniers have done. Nor have I heard anyone seriously fighting for their right not to be eradicated.
What important work has she done?
Okay, I’ll shut up and listen.
howstrange
5:16 pm | Jun 09, 2008Integral theory includes developmental theory but is not quite based upon it. Integral is a second tier stage of development that does recognize all previous stages, but doesn’t quite give all things equal value. It restores a sense of ranking(hierarchy) that was destroyed by the green stage of development. While Integral will acknowledge whatever truths Maxine has uncovered, it has no problem dismissing the lies. Integral thinking extracts the truths from the “partial” truths into a more well informed truth.
Green stage of development said all thought is of equal value, integral stage sees that as absurdity.
evil_FUX
6:20 pm | Jun 09, 2008Howstrange and nightshade are right. You can go ahead and dismiss the bad shit jaehwan but whatever relevant good stuff Maxine brought to the surface should remain. The prime directive of an integral vision is to maintain the health of the spiral; easier for second tier, I believe, but first tiers should be placed in healthy positions I think relative to their positions.
jaehwan
6:50 pm | Jun 09, 2008EF:
I think howstrange’s statement supports my view since he says the “all truths are equal” thing is absurdity and that it has no problems dismissing the lies.
What good stuff has she brought?
Okay, now I’ll really shut up and listen.
JadeDragon
7:33 pm | Jun 09, 2008To be honest, I don’t think this is the right way to analyse Asian-American feminist theory. By simply labelling the ideas that a few women have used in their defence of being racist against their own kind as “Kingstonism” (a term I don’t like using and have not used in any of my writing), you’re basically reifying concepts that even the most militant feminists would be hard-pressed to acknowledge as “truth”.
Another problem I find here is simply defining feminists who don’t agree with your viewpoint as the enemy and their ideas as “fake feminism”. I don’t think there is any monolithic entity espousing “Kingstonian” ideas throughout the media. Sure, there are movies, music videos and other things that denigrate Asian-American men while putting Asian-American women on a pedestal, but it’s a bit of a stretch to blame the trend solely on Kingston’s influence. In fact, it’s generally understood that many feminists can’t agree with each other completely and that’s welcomed because the criticism generated always brings in fresh ideas. As much as I dislike some of the ideas from the second wave, I appreciate them too because they are part of the foundation that gave birth to women’s emancipation and the third wave.
And while Kingston may have capitalised on Orientalism and the fetishistic imagery of Asian women to sell her work, she did help in getting recognition for Asian-Americans, albeit an incomplete sort. I mean, Germaine Greer is famous for The Female Eunuch, which is a classic in feminist theory and brought a lot of attention to the second wave, and I can appreciate it even though I think she’s a loony.
I agree with Nightshade. Xian, Howstrange and Evil-FUX here. This isn’t really what feminism, or even Integral, is about.
nightshade
9:10 pm | Jun 09, 2008Heh, howstrange, thanks for the brief. My understanding was that there are different stages of thought/development as categorized by Integral, and that because it’s a hierarchy, nothing at the higher levels can exist without the previous existence of the lower levels.
Why do you keep going back to the Holocaust deniers? How is Hong Kingston’s body of work similar to a bunch of retards saying, “Hitler didn’t kill no Jews. The Jews are liars.”? The two do not even come close to being equal. One example involves scholarship (even if you don’t want to admit it, Hong Kingston is scholar). The other example is a group of people being incredibly inflexible in their way of thinking.
evil_FUX
9:29 pm | Jun 09, 2008I’m not sure what you’re getting at since I don’t think I brought that issue up.
I honestly don’t know what she’s brought to the table other than a surmise that she helped establish a rough foundation of AA feminism. I undoubtedly could be wrong. You’d have to ask Jade more about that.
Xian
11:17 pm | Jun 09, 2008How is “China Men”? I’ve only read excerpts, but isn’t that the one with the story about the white kid who is adopted by the Chinese American family who raise him right, but then he’s snatched away because the government doesn’t believe that a good white kid should be raised by colored people, and then he gets all crappy?
I guess I’m just unclear on most ideological blog entries here have to be about what things aren’t. I’m sick of hearing what feminism isn’t and what activism isn’t. I mean, not to be crass, but no shit.
What is feminism? What is activism? And what are the strategic versions that will deliver victories? Who has time to brand the usurper when we have so much more to be doing.
The truth outshines the hollow alternatives, but only if you devote your energy to showcase the truth.
Dialectic
3:44 pm | Jun 10, 2008Just to chime in on the integral thing, the basic rule of thumb is “everyone has a piece of the truth.” It’s about integrating the fundamental insight of every existing perspective and negating its partiality, or exclusivity.
With regard to “mean green” specifically, it’s an opinion of Wilber’s (which I agree with, but some don’t) that the “post-modern” boomers across all domains - art, advocacy, academia, spirituality - have exhibited tendencies toward narcissism, deconstruction, and general meanness and snobbiness (ironic, because they’re the ones against meanness and snobbiness), which has been passed to this generation and is fucking up peoples’ mental well-being. All of us have been affected to some extent.
As for where Kingston fits into this, I don’t know, but I don’t think there’s much more to say on this subject. The way things are now, I don’t think we have to explicitly attack or tear-down certain people, we just have to build something better. That “something better,” that’s what’s up for discussion.
sargassosea
4:19 am | Jun 11, 2008Although you claim that you do not condone Krome’s language, I am completely disgusted that you would endorse any part of a comment using such violent, sexist language to discuss Hong Kingston and refer to its author as a “friend.” Furthermore, I find it extremely problematic that you, as a male, have taken it upon yourself to decide what constitutes “real” and “fake” feminism. In the comments of your “Asian Feminist Jurisprudence” article, you wondered why more self-identified Asian-American feminists do not frequent this site. I think you need look no further than posts like this for the answer.
caocao
4:42 pm | Jun 11, 2008just one question for sargassosea: where were you during the JV&Elvis or the Chinese Laundry debacles? were you voicing your “disgust” with racist white institutions equally as much you’re voicing “disgust” with AM opinions on Ms. Kingston?
or perhaps like most of the “kingstonian” pseudo-liberal racists hiding under the guise of PC pandering and hijacking feminist ideology, still denouncing “evil Asian male patriarchy” and like Ms. Natasha Yi, defending white males from such “disgust” and scorn that you’ve just written against [Asian] males?
AsianBGirl
8:05 pm | Jun 11, 2008“or perhaps like most of the “kingstonian” pseudo-liberal racists hiding under the guise of PC pandering and hijacking feminist ideology, still denouncing “evil Asian male patriarchy” and like Ms. Natasha Yi, defending white males from such “disgust” and scorn that you’ve just written against [Asian] males?”
You may as well count me in that category while you’re at it. *rolls eyes*
uRB4N
11:21 pm | Jun 11, 2008I wouldn’t discount Cao’s comment. There are many examples where Asian women would constantly condemn Asian sexism but then are surprisingly quiet when white men do it or when there is racism against Asian men by white men. Worse is when they’re actually apologists for it in a sick attempt to get “revenge” on Asian men by trivializing said racism by white men.
It HAS happened before.
aznbro
11:36 pm | Jun 11, 2008I think the Kingstonian voice has to be attacked simply because it has been accepted by the mainstream (including many AAs) and is drowning out the voices of all others, including other AA feminists.
We can all see (or are aware of) the symptoms of malaise within the AA community:
* gender rift
* reduced cohesion amongs 2nd+ AFs (my personal observation living in Toronto, on the lunch-hour scene downtown)
* higher suicide rates among AFs
Unfortunately, those who have bought into the Kingstonian way of thinking would likely place most of the blame on the “defective” AMs.
Implicit in this is that there is nothing for non-Asians and AFs to do because they are not the problem and that if there were a problem within the AA community, it would go away once AMs gets their act together.
aznbro
11:38 pm | Jun 11, 2008Oops. I don’t think I’ve got the editing features figured yet. My previous post was not meant to be quoted in that fashion.
AsianBGirl
11:39 pm | Jun 11, 2008“Worse is when they’re actually apologists for it in a sick attempt to get “revenge” on Asian men by trivializing said racism by white men.”
Has sargassosea shown anything of the sort so far?
Yes, I know it HAS happened before. And then there’s girls like me who don’t believe in shitting on Asian men, let alone putting white men on any kind pedestal, yet I still ended up being in the “girl who cries footbinder” category whenever I feel APIA feminism gets too generalized. That HAS also happened before.
nightshade
12:00 am | Jun 12, 2008When did this site become Model Minority?
If you fuckers only knew the bullshit we dealt with from white men, you wouldn’t even begin to be such assholes, especially those of you dumb fucks who secretly want a blonde girlfriend. Yeah, you know who you are.
Better watch out, I’m going to find you and rape you with a glass Perrier bottle.
AsianBGirl
12:01 am | Jun 12, 2008Nightshade:
That post isn’t directed to me is it?? O_o
Xian
12:39 am | Jun 12, 2008Nightshade:
That post isn’t directed to me is it?? O_o
Can’t speak for her, but I’d say she’s referring to Model Minority having a lot of heavily vitrioled bitter anti-AF postings and how a few of the posts in this thread reflect that mindset.
As you correctly point out, we must avoid this “I’ve been hurt by someone from this identity group before” BS to generalize away our necessary alliances.
I’m more concerned with how we stop institutions of racism and sexism than what stupid person who identifies with a group you ran into this week.
nightshade
1:03 am | Jun 12, 2008AsianBGirl,
Are you serious?
AsianBGirl
1:47 am | Jun 12, 2008I’m a bit slow and insecure at times. Plus I was also taking part of the bitchfest too, so I iono. :-p
kwak76
3:43 am | Jun 12, 2008Does the average Asian American even know who is Kingston? Shoot I didn’t even know who she was until I started to visit these blogs. Does Kingston have some influence on the state of Asian America? I imagine to a lesser degree but I think to say that the Kingston is the cause of the rift between Asian American men and women is going a bit too far.
I think our gender dynamics is more of a cause from a lack of strong identity among Asian Americans than Kingston.
sargassosea
9:41 am | Jun 12, 2008Caocao, what are you talking about? You know nothing of me or my history of activism in the APIA community. It’s astounding that you have managed to (incorrectly) surmise from the short paragraph I wrote to Jaehwan that I am a “Kingstonian” set on denouncing “evil Asian male patriarchy” while “defending white males.” Where in this comment or in my other comments on feminism have I either denounced Asian men or defended white men?
Your knee-jerk reaction to my critique of Jaehwan’s endorsement of a certain comment is entirely inappropriate. Women within the APIA community must be allowed to disagree with men without immediately facing hostile accusations of “Kingstonism” and “hating Asian men.” Otherwise you have destroyed all opportunity for dialogue and have effectively created a witch hunt.
Jennifer Pan
P.S. To AsianBGirl, Nightshade and Xian: well said. Thank you.
AsianBGirl
11:04 am | Jun 12, 2008Kwak:
“Does the average Asian American even know who is Kingston? Shoot I didn’t even know who she was until I started to visit these blogs.”
That’s the same exact case with me. It’s about the same with the activists I’ve talked to who are around my age group. Mind you, they also don’t know too much about the online activist community. They’re just busy with other things in real life. (Actually, the online activist community compared to real life could be a whole other topic..)
“I think our gender dynamics is more of a cause from a lack of strong identity among Asian Americans than Kingston.”
I think it’s also the emasculation and vilifying of API males combined with the favoring/exotifying of API females that adds to it. Those stereotypes have a long history in our media and American culture in general. I think those of us who aren’t surrounded by the right people and/or taught to empower ourselves
properly end up falling into that mindset.
JadeDragon
1:23 pm | Jun 12, 2008I think it’s a shame when a few people immediately accuse female posters of being “apologists” or “traitors” when they have valid criticisms about the discussion. While no one has explicitly denied the existence of these so-called “apologists”, it’s not helpful to jump on every female poster here or on other sites and accuse them of being in cahoots with racist white men. No wonder we don’t have more women visiting the site when all this bullshit is being spewed about.
It’s even more stupid to whip out your cock and tape measure, and ask “what have YOU done for the CAUSE?!” as if you were the arbiter of what it is to be a righteous activist. This is the internet and no one needs to prove their credentials to you when there’s actual work to be done in real life.
Ike
5:22 pm | Jun 12, 2008BGirl,
Nightshade knows about your secret desire for a blonde white girl!
kimtae
9:08 pm | Jun 12, 2008Kwak speaks wisdom. Who gives a fuck about Kingston, oh wait, now I do because I’ve been made painfully aware of her when I was blissfully ignorant before coming onto APA websites.
caocao
11:21 pm | Jun 12, 2008i don’t have the time nor the patience to reply individually to the posts pointing fingers back at me. and suffice to say, all the same old “beating the dead horse” arguments have been repeated ad nauseum over the asian forums over and over again and there’s really no point to go into them here.
the best we can all do is to “agree to disagree” there are some severe problems with the asian-american gender divide.
but suffice to say from the amount of posts on this topic and previous ones that there is a serious rift politically between most asian men and women, and that’s a shame, because it’s the colonial masters that win ultimately.
however, the point here is that everybody’s guilty for perpetuating the “gender gap” and everybody’s responsible for mending fences.
as much i’ve been called out here as a typical AM sexists who aborts female fetuses and footbinds women (or strongly implied from the tone of voice), are the self-proclaimed feminists any better in trying to understand the “crazy MM-ites” position or are they equally guilty of making judgments and crying “evil AM patriarchy” soon as they read criticism?
and for what it’s worth, if these “enlightened feminists who aren’t kingstonians” feel they’re so far away and above the inherent hypocrisy of the “kingstonian” camp, then what’s the problem denouncing that racist and sexist camp of false hijacked feminist ideology?
what i’m reading is that we AM are evil for choosing a moniker that’s conveniently named “kingstonian” and are all patriarchs for labeling all asian feminist women as “kingstonains.” where then is the voice to prove otherwise that 3rd, 4th, 5th,… nth wave AF feminism has proudly and loudly denounced the shackles of racist and sexist “kingstonian” “feminism?”
if nobody identifies with “kingstonian” and are upset with merely the name, then where’s the outcry against the false feminist ideology embedded with that camp?
instead, all we get is the same version of if AM speak out against the racist and sexist “kingstonian” ideologies then we’re labeled evil AM patriarchs because we don’t understand the AF.
all the meanwhile, WM are given free passes and yet they’re the ones who perpetuate the current system of racist and sexist social problems for AF.
but nothing is done to at least denounce the current status quo of racist post(neo)-colonial gender inequalities for AF as caused by the white male dominated society.
and again, we go into this infinite loop about AM sexism and patriarchy for making a label “kingstonian” and the pointless semantic arguments thereof.
and everybody wonders why there’s such problems with AM and AF in the first place?
caocao
11:27 pm | Jun 12, 2008i also want to still ask the same question: why is that for “kingstonians” that asian-american males (AAM) are automatically labeled the same as old world asian males (OWAM) in online discussions?
so only the “kingstonians” feel AF can assimilate and relate culturally with the dominant culture and that AAM who grew up in the same environment are still the inscrutable foreigners as perpetuated by countless racist medias?
although i do not deny that sexism exists with OWAMs, both historically and even today, but why is that AAMs who are culturally the same as AAFs still labeled with the racist inscrutable foreigner stereotype?
and again, why is that sexism with the mainstream WM population not frowned upon, but only OWAM sexism is dissed at?
have anyone even seen Borat with the “young US&A scholars” in their cross country studies in a trailer and the things they said about women?
where’s the outrage?
especially against JV&Elvis type of WM comments against AAFs? and why is it that Natasha Yi “kingstonians” so quick to defend WM sexism against AAFs?
jaehwan
12:04 am | Jun 13, 2008Just wanted to quickly throw my two cents in. I’ve fulfilled my promise of shutting up and listening, and I think there have been some good exchanges in my absence.
First of all, I still stand by my original statement about Kingstonism. People can disagree with me–I’m cool with that–but no one has yet refuted it. Still, my post may have been inflammatory because of the “Asian American Feminist” reference, and so I’ll remove that. This blog post turned out to be about something other than feminism anyway, and after thinking it through, I’m angered at the racism more than the feminism.
Second, when I first read Sargasso’s post, I thought it was accusatory because of the statement “I find it extremely problematic that you, as a male, have taken it upon yourself to decide what constitutes “real” and “fake” feminism.” I thought it was accusatory because it focused on my maleness rather than my logic, and it’s a valid point, although it makes it hard for me to defend myself since I am male. Some of the men on this site may have felt the same way, which probably started the gender battle (well, actually I started it by putting the word “feminist” in the title.). Sargasso’s statement was not inflammatory, but it sounded that way because there was no follow up on the logic of my statements.
Third, none of the guys here have been mm-ish–at least I don’t think so. No one has called anyone a CCB or any of those other derogatory names. They’ve referenced Kingstonians, many of whom do act the way they say, but I don’t think they were inflammatory either; they were just expressing their anger at unfair treatment that, unfortunately, does take place, which was triggered by Sargasso’s “male” statement, which was triggered by my use of the word “feminist.”
So my bad.
Thank you all for posting here: Sargasso, Caocao, urb4N, Jade, shades, xian, bgirl,kimtae, kwak, aznbro, and anyone else I’ve left out. I think we’re all on the same side. I’m glad that we’ve brought some of these issues out, and I hope we can continue speaking respecfully with each other.
By the way, aznbro says succinctly what I was trying to say. I don’t think we necessarily need to demonize people, but we do have to acknowledge dangerous philosophies that have influenced our culture. I’ll say more about this later. If we disagree, I hope we can do so respectfully.
uRB4N
8:31 am | Jun 13, 2008Like Jaehwan said, I don’t think this thread and subsequent forum here has come anywhere near MM.com because there is at least some social discourse. However, it still suffers from the same problem; the legit voices get drowned out by indiscriminate screaming.
My first post was just to point out that many AA women seem to focus so much on sexism coming from Asian men while either staying quiet, ignoring, or in extreme cases, apologists towards white male sexism.
I’m not sure if AA women just feel more comfortable berating Asian men because it’s either socially acceptable to do so or because, since they’re Asian, they feel it’s their legit right to correct their own community.
I know I’m going to catch fire for this but I’m going to say it anyway. Alot of the issues that AAs face are either ignored or perpetuated by AAs themselves. The problem is that the community is scatterbrained because of these divisions.
Honestly, what AA activism has achieved so far is nothing short of amazing considering.
aznbro
6:06 pm | Jun 13, 2008I think there would be a lot less yelling and screaming if we try to remember that both genders have some very deep-rooted grievances against the opposite sex.
As an AM I’m not as upset by the frequency of public attacks on AM by AF (such as youtube videos of the title “Why I don’t date AMs”) but by the absence of AFs coming to our defence. Often, it is some BF or WF that will take the extra time to rebuke the original message. I see all too often, however, how quick some AF are to come to the aid of WM when they are criticized.
On the AF side, I’d imagine I’d get pissed off too if AM constantly lumped me in with the other AF auto-racists even though I have time and again espressed my full support for AMs.
jaehwan
1:12 am | Jun 14, 2008Thanks, urB4N and aznbro, for your responses.
Aznbro, I just pm’ed you in the forum section regarding the way to use the blockquote function. I’d type it here, but unfortunately if I did that, it would blockquote. :)
aznbro
2:15 pm | Jun 14, 2008Oh thanks, Jaewan.