Pin the tail on the Asian male: Asian American Feminism Pt. 3 (with Bi Bim Bap)
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Jenn from Reappropriate posted an article about an Asian American male criminal (forwarded to her from her Asian American feminist friend Carmen at Racialicious), and then she went on a rant about how this ONE criminal’s behavior is a symptom of Asian American malehood. Check out the the original post here regarding this article, followed by the discussion here. You can see from the discussion that the blog post is so out of line that even Jenn’s strong supporters like “Ramona” have their doubts about whether the assertions and stereotypes are fair.
The story is this: some crazy Asian guy had a girlfriend who left him for a black man. He was crazy and angry, and he started writing threatening letters to black men married to white women, including (half-black) Derek Jeter and Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. He posed as an angry white woman, sending threats to black men for two decades. Finally he was caught.
This guy Tuason (who is of Filipino descent) is clearly mentally deranged, but according to Jenn:
Perhaps most damning about this story, however, is how some Asian American men might find in Tuason a kind of twisted martyr to the emasculated Asian American male struggle. Tuason is no hero: he is little more than an overgrown Kenneth Eng, hateful and bitter because life has handed him lemons. Tuason’s actions are not noble, they seem foolish, like the ranting of a child. Clearly, not all (or even most) Asian American men act like Tuason (or Eng). But some (including some readers of this blog) seem to follow his line of thinking (albeit far less extreme) [Jae's comment: How does she presume to know his "line of thinking?" All he said was that he was angry his girlfriend left him for a black man.]. I modestly suggest that perhaps Asian American men should consider how their own rantings on Asian American male sexuality might be perceived; in this case, Tuason does nothing to win the argument that he is more masculine, or more virile, than his ex-girlfriend’s new boyfriend. [Cuz obviously he's Asian and is just like the rest of those Chinamen who can't get any! And who said he was trying to be "more virile?"]
The “masculine” thing for Tuason to do would have been to move on past the rejection of his former girlfriend, live a successful life, and prove to himself and the world that he is as masculine as he needs to be. The “masculine” thing to do would have been to redefine what masculine is, and in so doing, love the embodiment of masculine that Tuason could be. But Tuason could not overthrow the mainstream paradigm of American masculinity that disadvantages him and men like him [Whooaaa...again, presumption on the part of the blogger. How does she know what he's thinking? And since when is it about Tuason's race? Since we played the Kingstonian game of pin-the-tail-on-the-Asian-male!]. Instead, he wrote angry anonymous letters by email to men he did not know, threatening to prove his own virility by castrating the men who had threatened it. The look in Tuason’s eyes are like that of a child, defeated and thus embittered, petty, infantile and foolish.
Call me old fashioned, but I think Asian American men are better than that. So, stop acting like you’re not.
Whhhooooaaa. So basically she blames us for what this ONE guy did. Or she links him to us as if we have some kind of cultural foible that makes us do this kind of thing. True to the traditional Kingstonian paradigm, we’re guilty before the trial even began, despite the fact that we weren’t even at the scene of the crime! You can see why even her supporters are a bit uncomfortable supporting her on these obviously biased statements. Even though this guy has nothing to do with me or any of you, somehow we’re responsible for him. It would be like hearing of the D.C. Sniper and saying, “Oh look, what that black man did! Why can’t you black men behave!” But of course people don’t say that, because unlike black men, we Asian men lack media and cultural power. Jenn recognizes individuality in black men or white men, but somehow we Asian men are all part of the same faceless Mongol horde where we’re all guilty of something. It’s the method of Kingstonian Asian American feminism: Pin the tail on the Asian male. If you gotta blame someone, blame someone who can’t fight back. Pin it on the Asian guy.
Let me quote Xian from the discussion:
Why are white crazies treated as individuals, and minority crazies are used to tar-and-feather their identity group? Why do we have to watch the news and respond to any negative actions committed by a non-white person with “Oh shit, tomorrow’s going to be challenging!” while a white male would never face the same?
I don’t blame Jenn. Everyone attacks the Asian man. It’s like a sport for these Kingstonian feminists, and she has acknowledged that she comes from that school of thought. But I do think we have to realize: Kingstonian feminism is not a good thing.
This is why I originally said that Asian American feminism needed to be eliminated. As maogirl and nightshade said, it’s just a movement to make it socially acceptable for Asian women to fuck non-Asian men–which I guess is a fine and noble goal according to some people’s values, but it’s a piss poor version of feminism, and it’s an insult to real feminists. Xian and Catty debated with me, and I then modified my position in Part II to say that a good Asian American feminism might be possible, but it would have to differentiate itself from Kingstonian feminism. Now I’m going to refine my position once again–I think we NEED Asian American feminism, AND I think it NEEDS to take aim at eliminating Kingstonian feminism. This game of Pin-the-tail-on-the-Asian-male has got to stop. Otherwise, how else will Asian American women empower themselves? How else can we ever come together as a community? (and yes, I realize that that’s not necessarily the goal of all the players)
Quite simply, there is no room for two feminisms with one based on un-truth, and the other based on truth. You can’t have this double standard where one “feminism” has the chief aim at pinning the tail on the Asian male for every crime under the sun, while another is seeking truth for Asian women. They just won’t work together. Historically, Kingstonians have been too busy attacking Asian men to even devote time to their own empowerment goals. These two feminisms can’t live under the same roof. One will eventually kill the other, and the one based on truth will overcome the one based on stereotypes. So why waste our time? Let’s just get rid of the lies and stereotypes NOW.
I just want to point out a few more things. In the discussion, Jenn wrote:
To jaehwan and xian,
*rolls eyes*
Whatev. My post clearly denotes that I am talking about how I have more respect for the Asian American identity — as a whole — than Tuason’s actions done in the name of the emasculation stereotype. That last line is all about how Tuason is an embarassment to his community.
But James is right. I’m not writing for you. It took a hiatus to realize that your brand of sanctimonious, blind sexism will never change and I need to stop caring about it.
It’s almost ludicrous how a post like this, that’s about sexism and racism that comes from an extreme form of fundamentalism that has victimized me and my relationship, still can’t generate a reasoned discussion regarding how you — jaehwan and xian — might be helping to feed a sexist and racist beast.
1. I’m not “embarrassed” by Tuason. He’s not me. The only thing we share is race, and unless I come from a race of gods (or unless I’m a white guy in an Amy Tan novel), there will always be bad people within my race. Most Asian men don’t act like Tuason. In fact, it’s the first time I’ve heard of an Asian man doing this.
2. Xian? A sexist? I don’t have to comment on this–you’ve all seen his writings on compassion and empathy. I challenge anyone to find anything on that he wrote that is sexist. Calling Xian a “sexist” is like calling Gandhi a violent thug.
3. Tuason, though I disapprove of what he did, didn’t demonstrate sexism either. How is it sexist to write harassing letters to black men? Unless Clarence Thomas and Derek Jeter are actually women in reverse-drag AND Tuason was aware of this fact AND he harassed them based on their female gender, there was no sexism. How could there be sexism if there were no women involved, either in person or in speech (other than “she left me”)? I don’t defend what Tuason did, but someone has to point out the irrational charges of sexism. Oh, that’s right–Tuason is one of those Asian guys. Guilty when charged! Sexist Asian pig!!! I guess that would incriminate me too…
Anyway, I’m now convinced that we need a new Asian American feminism. But this time it has to be different. Let’s channel those local activists and create a BIG movement. Let’s empower ourselves together.
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kimtae
2:01 am | May 21, 2008Nothing unusaul here, she’s just showing her true colors. Jenn has long been one of the worst examples of an AF who is just “better” than the rest of us.
nightshade
2:04 am | May 21, 2008lol, she called xian sexist? I guess it’s because he’s Asian. xian, you’re such a footbinder. I don’t know how you can live with yourself.
sundayalliance
2:34 am | May 21, 2008Shiiieett, everyday is a battle man, seems like it never ends. Keep up the good work guys.
blockthebox
2:58 am | May 21, 2008Anyone who can call Xian a sexist is just a little cray cray.
But listen, in all seriousness, this is really *THE* ultimate example of how indoctrinated some of us are by white feminism and asian apologists.
She threw EVERY allegation into that post: (1) how this guy is sexist for blaming the boyfriend; (2) how he’s racist AND sexist for hating IR; (3) how he has a complex about being emasculated, and; (4) MOST IMPORTANTLY BECAUSE HEREIN LIES THE MORAL, KIDS — how we as AAs need to (a) distance ourselves from him because he’s asian before — holy shit! — whitey thinks we’s ALL like that crazy motherfucker!; and (b) make a pariah out of him before he becomes a potential hero who AA men might look up to (WHAT THE FUCK???).
CJF
3:03 am | May 21, 2008Wait, AAM think he’s a martyr? Lol. Talk about scarecrow.
SamuraiJack
8:24 am | May 21, 2008xian is definitely sexist against men
uRB4N
9:47 am | May 21, 2008I think the reason why she mentioned that it was sexism was because the woman was being used as a tool to prove a man’s worth. At least, that’s what I thought she meant.
The problem with the battle between “Asian man hating” Asian women is that they’ll always find popular support with white men whereas Asian women who stand by Asian men get the “stop your reverse racism” deal.
I’m not sure why Asian men still even debate this issue but I respect the ones that do. It must be tiresome to iceskate uphill.
awong
12:03 pm | May 21, 2008same lame response again, its like its robotic of these feminists when they make a response. Seems to me being a kingstonian feminist is more restrictive that the same arguement is used more than once
Xian
12:07 pm | May 21, 2008Just be careful. What this disagreement should teach is how we shouldn’t generalize “feminism” based on the bitter actions of a self-proclaimed feminist.
Asian American men have a right to be angry. Asian American women have a right to be angry. Hell, the vast majority of the country has a right to be angry.
That doesn’t mean that people who act that out destructively should be used to slur anyone from their identity group.
jaehwan
1:00 pm | May 21, 2008Xian,
I just posted on Jenn’s site and told her that I wouldn’t be posting there anymore. I’ll let her say what she wants about Asian men without getting in her way–at least not on her site; in public and on the 44’s, however, I’ll continue to fight for what’s right. We’re obviously causing some problems since even the feminists on that site like Ramona agree with us. Jenn says that there are “sexy, confident APIA men,” but clearly this doesn’t include people like you and me and others who speak out for justice. Maybe we can just be token minorities at the next Reappropriate bash.
You and I are in total agreement on all the significant points. This was the point of “Pin the Tail.” I now realize that we URGENTLY need Asian American feminism (and as I mentioned, my change of heart was due partially to your arguments), but it needs to be built on the nightshade/mg/box model rather than the Kingstonian model.
Think about it this way. Let’s say your main focus is love and empathy, and the guy next door says he’s of the same movement. The problem is that he steals money from the poor and abuses his kids. If you’re looking to spread love and empathy, you can’t just let him be if he tries to associate with you. You need to either fix the problem or get rid of it–kind of like Obama did with Wright.
I’m not saying that Jenn steals from the poor and abuses kids–she obviously doesn’t–but the philosophical problem is the same. You can’t preach about strong Asian American women if the philosophy is based on the destruction and suppression and slander (as Box mentions) of strong Asian American men.
So let’s do what we can to celebrate Asian women and facilitate the growth of real Asian American feminism.
jaehwan
1:20 pm | May 21, 2008Xian,
One area where I have to disagree with you. From her blog:
I wrote:
Tuason didn’t demonstrate any sexism either.
You responded:
Of course he did. He blames a class of men for “stealing” women. Sure, since the category is “black men”, he’s being racist. But he’s also viewing women as being without agency. It doesn’t get any more sexist than that.
Sure, he’s being racist, but I still don’t see proof of sexism there. I personally know people who have been mugged by black men and have responded with an irrational hatred of black people. I’ve seen people get passed over for a promotion by black men and had the same bitterness and irrational hatred. Tuason’s case may have something to do with sexism, but from the article, it’s likelier that it had more to do with his irrational anger at black men outside of anything with women. This could have been the case of a jilted lover, a mugging victim, or a disgruntled employee, and the outcome would be the same.
Candide
7:31 pm | May 21, 2008Asian American feminists seem to do most of the damages to the Asia American community. With such great people on our side, who need enemies?
If it weren’t for this forum, I’d never know that there’s another type of AA feminists who don’t backstab AA men.
AsianBGirl
7:47 pm | May 21, 2008“We’re obviously causing some problems since even the feminists on that site like Ramona agree with us.”
If that means that you or others from the 44’s were part of the reason why I myself had problems with Jen’s post, it’s not true.
And I never said I agreed with any of you. My comment on the language she used in her post to get her point across and my problem with it was from my reaction, and my reaction alone. As I said in Jenn’s blog, I understood exactly the type of people she was referring to in her comparison to Tuason, and I did see she makes a distinction that it is not all APIA males she is generalizing (nor do I feel she has any reason to do so). That’s totally different from how you seem to think that she is bashing all APIA males.
Now if it’s the case where she categorizes the men from the 44’s as being the same as these internet misogynists she’s describing, that’s all on both you and Jenn. As I said on Jenn’s blog, weird beef between Reappropriate and the 44’s that seems to go way back and is totally beyond me.
Oh, and this is Ramona btw. :)
kimtae
8:28 pm | May 21, 2008Hello Ramona. Maybe this is a bit simplistic but the beef as I see it is that Jenn has long been an auto-racist against AA men. She has a long history of making sweeping stereotyped generalized remarks against AAM. Her comments aregenerally of the backanded cowardly sort where she will always throw in the token “I know there are AAM who are not like this butt…” It’s pathological with her. Her brand of feminism is to see AM’s as the enemy first, all others second.
AsianBGirl
8:50 pm | May 21, 2008You’re right, it is simplistic.
jaehwan
9:03 pm | May 21, 2008Kimtae wrote:
“All others?” You mean there are some evils in the world that aren’t the fault of Asian men??? Dude, I’m shaking at the thought that we’re not the masters of evil.
Ramona,
I figured we had a part in it since you specifically mentioned the other posters in your first comment. Maybe I was wrong. That being what it is…does this mean you still would’ve posted if we had not raised the initial issues? I actually hope so. If so, please continue to raise these issues over there. We need to raise awareness.
Let me quote your words from the discussion:
You specifically said “it does sound like she was generalizing all APIA males.” So I think you kind of agreed, kind of didn’t. For the sake of clarification, I agree that you didn’t agree with everything I said, but you agreed with the major part which was what I was trying to refer to. If I made it sound like you agreed with everything, I apologize.
Let me also clarify the whole vs. parts escape clause. It’s like me seeing an Asian prostitute and then saying, “Well, I see skanky behavior from lots of Asian women. Not most, but lots. Some of you Asian women need to get your act together.” It’s still a condemnation of you as an Asian woman because it’s amplifying a stereotype based on ONE INDIVIDUAL and applying it to a group, even if you’re the “good Asian.” So that “escape clause” where she says she’s just referring to some of us is still offensive , and it’s still something she would never use against black men or white men. Hence, all the vitriol going back and forth with James being the sole male defender of her version of Asian American masculinity.
In any case, I’m not trying to be right. I’m just trying to push the dialogue further than it’s been going. As Stealth mentions, too often whenever progressive Asian Americans try to move forward, the “Asian American feminists” react by attacking the questioner rather than the question, and more than not, it’s the minority man rather than the white man (if at all) who bears the brunt of these attacks. Most white guys usually get a free pass from these so-called feminists.
For the record, I also want to clarify: this debate actually has got very little to do with 44’s vs. Reappropriate. The only people in that discussion from the 44’s were Ike (who only posted once or twice), Xian, me, and Minbo (who posted after I left). So it was only really me and xian. All those other guys who chimed in are not from around here. Trust me, this faux-minist silencing of Asian male voicesgoes waaayy beyond anything either of our two little sites have generated.
By the way, the 44’s practices free speech. We’re not afraid of it. We don’t silence good dialogue here. So feel free to disagree.
AsianBGirl
9:39 pm | May 21, 2008“That being what it is…does this mean you still would’ve posted if we had not raised the initial issues? I actually hope so.”
Yes, I would have posted my concerns whether or not either you or Xian had posted or not. As I said, my reaction was mine, and mine alone. And I’m sorry if the quote of mine that you bolded lead you to believe otherwise. But as I said in later comments, her langauge of her post was what I had a problem with. Other than that, her point was clear as to who exactly the kind of people she was talking about.
Obviously I seem to be in the minority of how everyone here feels over Jenn’s attitude with her feminism and APIA males. I think through my comments here and on Reappropriate, it’s pretty clear as to where I stand on this whole thing, so I’ll just leave it at that.
Scowl
9:43 pm | May 21, 2008Seems to me that minbo pretty much got it in that Jenn was talking about the fucked-up AM crazies that nobody likes, but didn’t make that clear from the start.
As an AAM who considers himself mostly sane and somewhat cognizant of his various layers of privilege, I was put on the defensive pretty quick from reading the post. After reading the whole thing, it seems to me to be more of a case of poor writing rather than any kind of malice. I still don’t like the writing or the argument, but it doesn’t seem like an attack on AAMs to me. It did at first glance.
At the same time, do you think there might be this thing going on where some AAMs are more open to discussions of sexism and misogyny only on the condition that men of other races are criticized in the same breath? I find myself feeling that way and up until now I hadn’t questioned whether or not I should be thinking that.
It seems to me that a lot of times she says, “AAMs are sexist” without adding, “Men of all colors are sexist” and that people are taking that to mean “men of other races are not sexist or as sexist” while she may not necessarily be saying that. That’s just something that came to mind as I read the post and the following comments.
Xian
11:31 pm | May 21, 2008I think that’s a great point, Scowl. I’d just respond that the problem is not bringing up there is sexism among AAMs without talking about other groups. It’s that if you don’t bring up the root causes, it comes up as merely attacking Asian American men.
In other words, if I say, “Punching kids is bad” then I will end up with a discussion with radicals who think that hitting kids is good.
If I say, “Here are some causes of child abuse, let’s discuss some solutions!” then I get a more constructive discussion.
Jae:
I agree with you on the ideology. I just would say that I don’t think this is as clear cut right v. wrong as you think.
I think that people in minority power arrangement often go for what they think is the easiest kill and that’s why we end up fighting each other.
The dynamic discussed above is a far much more likely explanation for Jenn’s approach that some pathology in her ideology.
I think her ideology is fine, she just gets caught up in tonal issues and abrasive discussions with extremists and then get caught in a giant battle royale where everyone is trying to take down everyone else.
I think if give the chance to be more constructive, you’d be surprised at her power for the movement.
kimtae
12:08 am | May 22, 2008Ramona, are you saying that Jenn doesn’t deliberately look to stand opposed to Asian men regardless of the issue or the person in question? You seem to know her well enough that you should also know her history and style of attack. All AM’s are evil despite her weak little disclaimers. Ever heard of the the phrase “damning with faint praise”? She’s a master of that.
AsianBGirl
12:32 am | May 22, 2008God damn my love/hate relationship with online arguing….
No, I don’t think she does deliberately oppose APIA men or think they’re more sexist than any other males. I’ve been an avid reader of her blog for some time, and I’ve seen evidence within her past postings as well as work that she’s done outside of the internet that she does not stereotype APIA males in such away, nor do I think she has a reason to. What I have seen her to do is point out sexism within the APIA community, which I don’t see anything wrong with when sexism does indeed exist to some degree within every minority community.
kimtae
12:48 am | May 22, 2008Then you’re blind.
jaehwan
12:53 am | May 22, 2008Bgirl
It’s addictive, isn’t it?
I don’t think she has reason to either. But people aren’t always reasonable, and she clearly stereotypes, which is why so many Asian men find her postings offensive. I think it’s just a matter of living in a society that has inherited post-colonial values. I don’t fault her or think that she is being malicious with her…umm…values. I just question why she doesn’t question, especially since these values anger and attack so many innocent people.
By the way, I still like her political commentary.
Xian:
I don’t know, Xian. I’ve said from the beginning that Jenn is very smart, and I think she’s got great organizing skills. I still agree with my original views. And even those she has fulfilled D’s prophecy by tossing around the “sexist” and “racist” labels whenever she wants to make a point, I truly don’t take it personally.
But it’s more than just that. In order to organize, you need to understand the perspectives of the people you work with, and the double standard that she sets for Asian American men is pathological. I’ve been patient, but the only thing I’ve received there is threats and name-calling from her and James, and quite honestly, I wouldn’t even mind the name-calling (I don’t like the threats) if it were backed up with rational discussion. But so far that hasn’t been the modus operandi. I think your experience has been somewhat similar, no?
But I’ve always been open minded, and if you see the possibility for change with her, I’ll bet on your empathetic touch.
nightshade
12:58 am | May 22, 2008Why do we bother? Why? It hurts so much harder when it’s one of our own who does this racist shit. And it’s just so much worse when other Asian American chicks follow blindly.
Sometimes I feel like the most misogynist person on the planet because I hate what these fake Asian Asian feminists are doing. Because how could bitches do this shit? I hate to break it to you, but to sexist America, our worth is tied to our men. And if we throw our men to the wolves, we’re really just fucking our own shit up.
Selfish, selfish bullshit.
nskripchun
12:58 am | May 22, 2008Pretty sharp observations, jae.
So I’m interested in what Jenn would have to say about this story?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004425634_groper20m.html
For the past two years, Seattle police have been pursing an African American male who exclusively targets Asian and Asian American women for sexual assault / groping. OMG, if one black guy is doing this, we better watch out for the entire community! (/sarcasm)
jaehwan
1:33 am | May 22, 2008Nightshade,
In case I haven’t said it before, you’re brilliant.
Skrips,
She’d say, “What? Are you trying to stereotype black men? That’s just wrong and racist. And sexist! Why are you even speaking for these Asian women? Do you think you own them? Are you portraying them as victims? Footbinder!”
She’d continue: “It’s terrible when minorities stereotype others. Black men have been victims of this sexual stereotyping for years. So let’s stop this racist discussion, and start talking about how you Asian men can fight the sexism and racism in your community which is plainly evident when I read about this Tuason character who is Asian!”
(/humor)
AsianBGirl
1:34 am | May 22, 2008“It’s addictive, isn’t it?”
Dude, you have more of an advantage than I do. Why not just call her?
groinpull
2:55 am | May 22, 2008There’s something seriously warped about Jenn Fang, and by association, other Asian feminists who support her. From reading her blog to listening to her on Fallout Central, she sounds like a cold hearted robot. There’s no warmth coming from her. I just sense someone who’s very calculated and very deceptive, and very vindictive.
She’s done some strange shit. Everything from denying that there is an IR disparity to promoting Falling For Grace before seeing the damn movie to this. She’s so fake.
You know I have respect for people who call themselves who they really are whether it’s good or bad. If you’re a racist and you call yourself a racist, I have more respect for you then if you pretend not to be. At least it shows me that you’ve got the heart to stand up for what you believe in. That you have in a sense, some kind of courage. But people like Jenn Fang just makes me sick.
nightshade
3:20 am | May 22, 2008Haha, I meant fake Asian American feminists. Drinking and typing do not go together.
Xian
8:01 am | May 22, 2008she sounds like a cold hearted robot.
C’mon my friend–can’t you see a problem with calling out a fellow Asian American as “a cold hearted robot”?
I don’t have time to do this, but I would encourage someone to re-read and analyze Jenn’s movement in the current thread vs. James’.
If you do so, I bet you would see very different motivations and intentions…
groinpull
10:44 am | May 22, 2008^it’s all academic with her. I’ve read her stuff and I’ve listened to her on fallout central several times. She really is cold and calculated.
minbo
12:12 pm | May 22, 2008The comments page on her blog is missing a number of the later comments. I don’t know if it is intentional as none of the earlier discussion was ganked, which I think was more distracting, but it is what it is.
AsianBGirl/Ramona, I don’t think that there is any special weird beef between Fighting 44s and Jenn. At the end of an unresolved disagreement of opinion, the question is can people agree to disagree and respect the other position. I believe that Jenn and some members of the 44s are not able to agree to disagree. Jenn and some members of the 44s feel there there is a lack of fundamental respect.
In my opinion, there is a large amount of disagreement on many issues on the 44s site. If the disagreement is the result of a difference in perspective or world view leading to radically different foundation axioms (eg “The nature of mankind is inherently good or inherently evil”. Not something like “all male models are mental midgets because that’s what I saw in Zoolander”), yet the logic which progresses from the axiom to the resulting opinion can be understood, then everyone that sticks around can agree to disagree. Everyone can respect that while they still feel that they are right, their intellectual opponents may not be entirely wrong either.
As long as the issue is truly being debated (no rants or inflexible sacred cows), any perspective and any issue is fair game to be aired and discussed. This allows some very radical views to be explored, leading to the perception that the 44s is some super militant wack job forum. The culture on the forum is such that if incomplete reasons, bad reasons or no reasons etc. are offered in defense of a position, regardless of how mainstream or radical the position, that person will be called out, often very roughly. If the person responds extremely poorly, the resulting dog pile can get very caustic causing the person feel that they were “run off” the site by radical rabid mad dogs. This is more of a general comment, not an observation about Jenn and the 44s as she never really posted here. Every long term member of the 44s at some point has been on the receiving end of a call out or dog pile.
jaehwan
12:20 pm | May 22, 2008Ramona,
Minbo makes a great point above.
Ramona wrote:
Since you ask, I’ll oblige. But before I do, I just want to make two points on the public record.
1. My act of calling is not an act of using my male voice to suppress her female voice. Regardless of what is said, the act of a male calling a female (whom he has never met in person) is not an act of sexism, even if said male happens to be Asian.
2. The act itself of an Asian male calling an Asian female who is dating James is not racist against James. Reading the blog of said Asian female is not racist against James. Breathing oxygen is not racist against James.
It’s surprising how defensive we Asian men have to be in order to protect our names, but if we can agree on these two points, I’ll call.
bluejives
12:38 pm | May 22, 2008What does bi-bim-bop have to do with this?
AsianBGirl
12:57 pm | May 22, 2008minbo:
“The comments page on her blog is missing a number of the later comments. I don’t know if it is intentional as none of the earlier discussion was ganked, which I think was more distracting, but it is what it is.”
I think there’s something wrong with Haloscan. It happened to me to the other day where all the comments were there, recent ones disappearing, then coming back again.
Jae-
With all due respect, and maybe I missed something here or on Reappropriate, but I don’t know what you’re on about. I only suggested calling her since you were the first to have a problem with her post, so I figured calling her would have been the best choice from the start instead of this whole back and forth posting online. I already said a little piece of my opinion on Jenn’s blog when it comes to online debating.
Maybe it’s just me being naive and in my early 20’s, but all honestly the minute I found out you guys had each other’s numbers this whole thing just seems so highschool. Which was only 6 years ago for me.
jaehwan
1:32 pm | May 22, 2008Ramona,
I think you’re supporting her because she’s a fellow Asian woman, and you’ve developed a relationship with her because of her blog. Which is fine. I admire that.
I had a problem with her mindset and method–not her–which is why I commented publicly so that people could discuss it on her blog. I never made any personal attacks at all. I never (and still don’t) have a problem with her personally; I just have a problem with her (and James’s) mindset and way of thinking.
They’ve come here before, and we’ve never threatened them or ask them to leave. We like it when they come.
As minbo mentions, we welcome disagreement here, which is why our culture doesn’t always translate well to other sites. Hell, we even link her site! I’ve been on the end of the dogpile here too. You, Ramona, have a problem with my post, for example, and you’re free to discuss it here–nobody will impose a different view on you, though people may disagree. You don’t have to call me on the phone because if you disagree with my post, I’d like you to post it on the blog! I won’t take it personally, and if I’m wrong, I’ll say so. And I can defend or sometimes even change my views right here.
That’s the great thing about our site and our culture. There is no need to conform to anyone else’s ideology. This is also the problem sometimes with being a 44. You get used to discussing issues online without taking things personally, and sometimes that mindset doesn’t translate well when visiting other sites.
AsianBGirl
2:44 pm | May 22, 2008Yes, I do support her because she’s a fellow APIA woman who I think has some very good insights as an APIA, but that has nothing to do with my suggestion.
I always figured if you have a problem with something or someone, and access to a better type of communication (such as phone or meeting in person), then online debate is just a waste of time. I’m probably coming from a narrowminded view of online debating, which could also explain my other qualms with it. So trying to point out how and why I support Jen, the nature of the 44’s, or that APIA males have to try to defend their name to great lengths is not needed for me. I just put online debating on the bottom of my list when it comes to communication. Mind you, I also come from a background where friends of mine would post something on their blog, another friend gets upsets and posts their views, both go back and forth obviously frustrated with one another, and then both would meet each other 4 hours later and pretend nothing was ever said. “Didn’t you just tell one another to go fuck themselves?” Again, highschool was just 6 years ago for me.
But do whatever it is you feel you should do. My suggestion is only a suggestion, and I’m just stating my opinion as to why it should be done.
jaehwan
2:14 am | May 23, 2008Ramona,
You asked, so I called her. Was anything resolved? I really don’t know. It never was personal for me (so the personal touch neither helped nor hurt), and Jenn still has her ideology which I still feel is highly destructive. In the end, we agreed that it would probably just make sense to blog about our differences, which is what we were doing in the first place.
I understand what you’re talking about with your friends, but we’re a political blog, so we never talk about our personal lives very much. Most of our stuff gets resolved right here, and the blog enables us to do it asynchronously, which is good given the fact that we have people all around the world.
Anyway, I have a blog about blogging coming up in the next day or so.
jaehwan
2:22 am | May 23, 2008bluejives:
Nothing, but it looks pretty good, right?
jaehwan
11:47 am | May 23, 2008Skrips,
It looks like they caught that dude in Seattle.
http://www.angryasianman.com/2008/05/groping-suspect-arrested-in-seattle.html
As you mentioned, let’s see if certain parts of the blogosphere react.