Elite Korean Schools
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I always knew that the Koreans were serious about education, and reading about Korean schools that aim to land their pupils in Ivy League schools didn’t surprise me. Nor was I surprised to learn that the students who attend these schools have an intense daily regimen focused on schoolwork. It’s an interesting read, and it lends support to the idea that the U.S. needs to focus more on education in order to remain competitive.
I liked the article. However, I did have a question. The article says,
As bright as she is, she was just one great student among many, said Eric Cho, Daewon’s college counselor. Sitting at his computer terminal at the school, perched on a craggy eastern hilltop overlooking the Seoul skyline, Mr. Cho scrolled through the class of 2008’s academic records.
Their average combined SAT score was 2203 out of 2400. By comparison, the average combined score at Phillips Exeter, the New Hampshire boarding school, is 2085. Sixty-seven Daewon graduates had perfect 800 math scores.
Kim Hyun-kyung, 17, scored perfect 800s on the SAT verbal and math tests, and 790 in writing.
Is the SAT verbal section in English or Korean for these kids? I thought that the SAT was an English-language test, and it’s scary to think that these Korean kids are beating the Exeter kids in written English!
Anyway, I e-mailed the author of the article. Hopefully he’ll tell us that these students take a Korean version. Otherwise we’re in some serious trouble.
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nightshade
4:35 am | Apr 27, 2008The SATs are a measure for entry into American schools–the only reason to take them is to go to school in the US. I’m positive that it’s only given in English.
jaehwan
6:34 pm | Apr 27, 2008I looked at the College Board website, and it’s just like you said–only for entrance to American schools, and I only see it in English.
I rag on the American school system all the time, but this time something just doesn’t make sense. Exeter kids are the cream of the crop. Not only are most of them smart, but they’re also rich–which means they can and do afford SAT tutoring. (I think Exeter’s endowment is bigger than most private university endownments.) I can understand if these Korean kids can beat the Exeter kids in math and science, but I don’t understand how they could possibly write better, or even comparable, essays in a language that is not their own.
If they are beating the Exter kids in English writing, I would think that that would be the much bigger news story than just the Ivy efforts.
CJF
2:39 pm | Apr 28, 2008These schools aren’t all that great for the kids. A lot of them experience burn out.
maloy
11:34 am | Apr 29, 2008dude, i’m shaking my head over this statement you made:
“Is the SAT verbal section in English or Korean for these kids? I thought that the SAT was an English-language test, and it’s scary to think that these Korean kids are beating the Exeter kids in written English!
Anyway, I e-mailed the author of the article. Hopefully he’ll tell us that these students take a Korean version. Otherwise we’re in some serious trouble.”
i realize being american, you’re used to monolingual illiterates who can barely spell their name, but this is a really ignorant statement.
you do realize that i (and a few other posters on this forum) were born and raised in asia, and our english is better than 90% of the posters on the forum who were born and raised in the US?
there is something very condescending about this whole “how in the world could koreans speak better english than americans??”
i understand where you’re coming from in the sense that the US is an english-speaking country, but to profess shock that these obviously-gifted and privileged kids are better than their american counterparts is extremely patronizing. so fucking what? privileged kids in korea should be dumber than privileged american kids? i hope you see the problem in that line of thought.
generally speaking, asians have better language skills than americans. many of us live in more diverse communities, many of us travel overseas and watch foreign programmes, a few of us are privileged enough to be educated in two or more languages. the tragedy of this situation is that multi-language proficiency is great, but english proficiency is prioritized as a consequence of imperialism and colonial rule. it’s not something to be proud of, but it’s still a marker of status and privilege.
jaehwan
12:31 pm | Apr 29, 2008Hey Mao,
Welcome back!
Mao, I still have to disagree with you on this one. I never said that Koreans couldn’t speak better English than Americans, nor am I denying that your English and Jade’s English are better than most posters in the U.S. or on this board–that’s obviously the case. On this blog post, however, we’re not talking about certain non-American individuals being more knowledgeable than average Americans; we’re talking about Exeter kids, and we’re talking about averages among them, not averages among Americans, and not about any particular individuals. These Exeter kids are very bright, very privileged, and a good number of them are the sons and daughters of the owners/publishers/writers of the newspapers and books that you and I read. A good number of these kids are raised in families where the they debate issues with world leaders at the dinner table. (This isn’t an exaggeration either.)
So if the average student at School A spends their time meeting and talking to people who write for the New Yorker or New York Times and debate issues with world leaders in English, while the average student at School B doesn’t, my question makes sense. Add the fact that the average student at School B lives in a country where English is not spoken freely, and I would say that one would expect the writing skills of the average student at School A to be better than the average student at School B. Not because “privileged kids in korea should be dumber than privileged american kids,” but because the average top American kids are exposed to the language at a much higher level. I would be equally surprised if some American school were beating the kids of Daewon or Minjok in Korean writing skills.
Now if you told me that one individual from Daewon or Minjok was stronger in English than any individual at Exeter–even if it were the Exeter valedictorian–that might make sense, since geniuses or high achieving individuals obviously exist everywhere. But averages? I don’t think it’s ignorant to question averages when the average experience is so different. If the Daewon/Minjok kids really are better, I would think that that would be a bigger story than just a story about cram schools.
Does this make sense?
nightshade
10:06 pm | Apr 29, 2008Somehow I knew that maogirl would call you out, jae.
All I have to say about schools like Exeter is that the legacies probably bring down the averages across the board.
maloy
2:31 am | Apr 30, 2008heh, jaehwan, thanks, i’m only killing time before i meet the gorgeous new bassist — incidentally, a guy who is chinese filipino who was raised in HK and is perfectly literate in cantonese and english, and speaks mandarin, as well.
as i said, because of colonization, there is a subgroup of people like him (or myself) who are just a part of asia as a poor labourer who only speaks two chinese dialects.
i do know where you’re coming from, but one of the beefs i have with asian americans is how insistent you people are about seeing only one type of asian, the type who you can define yourself against.
again, the tragedy of colonization means that there IS a group of kids who grow up in asia who speak ONLY english, whose lives revolve solely around english — english media, english-language schools, english-speaking friends and community, etc.
yes, it’s retarded, but it’s a natural post-colonial consequence.
in fact, by saying this: “These Exeter kids are very bright, very privileged, and a good number of them are the sons and daughters of the owners/publishers/writers of the newspapers and books that you and I read. A good number of these kids are raised in families where the they debate issues with world leaders at the dinner table. (This isn’t an exaggeration either.)”
DUDE, are you for real? you realize that rich asian kids are JUST AS PRIVILEGED? they also have parents who speak english, they have sit-down dinners with world leaders as well!
again, why are you assuming this is something only americans can access? can’t you see how condescending this is? in fact, i would say that privileged kids in asia probably have more “privileged” experiences than their western counterparts — you see random kids at very important political events simply because their parents treat it like a family dinner and want to show off the progeny.
“Not because “privileged kids in korea should be dumber than privileged american kids,” but because the average top American kids are exposed to the language at a much higher level. I would be equally surprised if some American school were beating the kids of Daewon or Minjok in Korean writing skills.”
again, there is a post-colonial bubble here for privileged kids where the colonial language — in this case, english — rules. these kids are just as exposed as their american counterparts, etc.
i like you, dude, but this is still ignorant shit you’re saying.
maloy
2:41 am | Apr 30, 2008just to clarify: being fluent in the language of the colonizers isn’t something i think people should be proud of (even though there are people who are).
people like me, we’re living proof of how colonization has wrecked asia.
Xian
7:40 am | Apr 30, 2008i understand where you’re coming from in the sense that the US is an english-speaking country, but to profess shock that these obviously-gifted and privileged kids are better than their american counterparts is extremely patronizing. so fucking what? privileged kids in korea should be dumber than privileged american kids? i hope you see the problem in that line of thought.
I understand the reaction and why it comes across as condescending. I guess my question would be the level of immersion. How many classes/day are entirely in English? How many conversations? How many of the works read?
I didn’t read it as condescension, but merely a surprise based on the level of immersion which to be fair to Jae, he was forthcoming that he didn’t know much about and then asked questions–exactly the right approach, right?
Furthermore, I think of anything, NS’ point is critical–elite is elite, but if there’s a “rich white dude’s kids have to get in” provision, that’s going to mess up the average.
jaehwan
11:57 am | Apr 30, 2008Maogirl wrote:
I saw that! Does that mean you have to reshoot all those pictures? You should send the old bassist a bill for services rendered. Good thing you like the new one.
So disclosure about what I know and what I don’t. I am familiar with kids from international school. I had them at my university, and you’re right; they speak mostly English; their Japanese is good but not perfect. Most of them were raised in International Schools ever since birth. One of them was an absolutely phenomenal writer; one of her short stories about cultural relations that she wrote in high school was absolutely excellent. And you’re right–since a lot of these kids are the sons and daughters of diplomats and business leaders, they get exposure to world leaders and the like.
However:
1. Daewon, the school that supposedly has higher SAT scores than Exeter, is NOT an international school. The primary language of instruction is Korean. Japanese and English are subjects, and I would guess that most of them think in Korean.
2. Minjok teaches in English, but even then, like Daewon, they get most of their people out of middle schools all over the country, past puberty when the basic language sets have been internalized. It doesn’t look like they’re just a feeding high school for international kids either; they select people on a broad number of skills, many of which probably don’t include the English language.
3. Exeter is the top high school in the United States. Legacies or not, their test scores are, to my knowledge, higher than anywhere else. I know people from Bronx Science, number two in New York, who complain about how kids at places like Exeter and Andover screw things up with their test prep. Sure, people like George W. Bush bring down the average, but the average is still high.
4. Even if international school kids get to meet top world leaders who speak English, I think the Exeter kids still have an advantage. I’m willing to bet that people like Edward Said, Ian McEwan, Kazuo Ishiguro, and Nancy Pelosi probably spend more time on the East Coast of the U.S. than in Korea (even though McEwan and Ishiguro are British). International kids probably travel, but they probably spend most of their time where they live. Now do you have to hang out with Kazuo Ishiguro to speak and write well? Probably not, but I would think that it would help.
5. In your defense, the Daewon and Minjok kids probably work a lot harder than the Exeter kids since these Exeter kids know that they’re getting into Harvard or Yale regardless of what happens.
6. I don’t know that Exeter kids definitely outscore Daewon kids. I was just questioning.
So as Xian mentions, I’m not trying to be condescending; I’m just pointing out reasons to question the numbers, and I was just expressing surprise and doubt, based on my reasons above.
Hey, I agree with you on almost everything else! (Though the jury hasn’t yet weighed in on whether or not that bassist is hot…)
maloy
2:21 pm | Apr 30, 2008trust me, he’s super cute. i can’t stop molesting him, i hugged him a while ago and it felt like i was hugging a piece of metal (he’s a fitness trainer). it’s so weird, i patted him on the back and i could feel the muscles on it.
anyway, i feel like i’m in a strange position here because:
a) i feel the same frustration as when i point out white privilege to nice white people who just can’t see it. what more can i say about postcolonial life that doesn’t explain what i’m trying to get at? these kids are from the top 5% of korean schools. and you do realize that jade and i came from convent schools, not proper international schools? my school taught in tagalog and chinese, not english. but because of the way we lived and what we were exposed to, we all ended up being english speakers anyway and have worse tagalog and chinese skills.
(incidentally, i never intended for my english-language skills to be validated. i know they’re good, and that’s my tragedy. my point was that i’m not unique.)
i know your intention isn’t to be condescending, but what you wrote still is. just like how some white people don’t mean to be racist, they have the best intentions, but they still are.
b) you ever have those moments when people say that you’re just being oversensitive to racial stuff as a way to invalidate what you feel? i’m feeling that right now, and it’s strange coming from you, of all people.
look: you insist that there is no way that kids from asian schools can possibly beat exeter kids in english. sure, there’s an initial reaction of surprise if you’re not from asia, but dude, you’re practically insisting that they SHOULDN’T. you don’t think that’s a problematic way of thinking? even with the reasons you provided above, dude, these kids are the BEST of their generation — you’re implying that just because they’re korean they must automatically be inferior to their american counterparts.
yes, i know, you listed out all your reasons, but fundamentally, you’re simply giving excuses why americans are better.
jaehwan
4:04 am | May 01, 2008Hey Mao,
I think I’m putting you in a strange position where you have to argue for the English skills of students in Asia, while at the same time you’re (justifiably) angry that English is common among you.
I’ve never been to an International School, and I was just questioning. I don’t think that Americans are better, though it may have come out that way. I don’t know how it reads to someone in your situation, but I definitely didn’t mean it as condescension.
Apologies. Hope that’s cool.
maloy
6:47 am | May 01, 2008sigh…i accept your apology but…you’re still not getting why i find your statements patronizing.
“I’ve never been to an International School, and I was just questioning. I don’t think that Americans are better, though it may have come out that way.”
it’s the fact that you questioned in the first place and then proceeded to defend your questioning.
look, let me try one last time to explain. suppose we were talking about a historically black college like spelman and harvard, and it turns out that students in spelman outscored harvard students consistently.
your reaction is equivalent to: “how could it be?? they’re black! they don’t have the same privileges as white people! their parents speak ebonics! they live in the ghetto!”
do you see now?
yes, it’s fine to question, but you should be aware of the prejudice behind your questioning.
you know…this is seriously my final, despairing volley because i honestly don’t know how to explain this otherwise. i really do feel like i’m explaining white privilege to the same white people who pollute sites like this. i’m not an evangelist, so if you really can’t see what my point is, then so be it.
sigh…i really wonder if there’s any hope for you people sometimes.
jaehwan
1:05 pm | May 01, 2008Hey Mao,
I see what you’re saying on a logical level, but I don’t feel it. You’re right. I’m in the same boat as Xian: I can see what you’re saying, but I don’t read it on the same level. And I respect you way too much to pretend that I do. Point taken on Spelman vs. Harvard, but I’m coming from a different angle. Since I realize that those Korean kids are just as privileged as the Exeter kids. I’m not looking at privilege; I’m looking at experience.
This is the angle that I’m coming from:
A couple years ago, Park Jin-Young, the owner and founder of Korean media conglomerate JYP, was interviewed by a newspaper. He was holding these auditions in Los Angeles for Asian Americans who wanted to become pop stars in Korea. When asked why he would come all the way to America to recruit Asian stars, he said that Asian kids in America knew how to rap. He said that they’ve been raised on hip hop and R and B, and they tend to be much smoother than the Asian kids in Asia.
I don’t know if it’s just a marketing ploy to bring Asian Americans to Asia and capitalize on cachet that we bring because of Western colonialism, but the explanation makes sense. Especially if he’s looking for people to rap in English (which Korean pop-stars sometimes do), one would think he would find more candidates here, and the increased competition would yield a higher standard. The sample size is much bigger here, plus Asian Americans are exposed to R and B and hip hop on every level every time they turn on the radio.
Daewon vs. Exeter is much the same way. Kids at Exeter see the U.S. political debates, and they are exposed to the way people talk to one another. Plus, they’re pulled from a much larger pool of English speaking applicants. It has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with experience and numbers.
Now is Park Jin Young a racist or a colonized lap dog for believing that certain Asian American experiences contribute to a higher likelihood of greater rapping ability? I don’t know, but his explanation makes sense. One would expect people who live in an English speaking country to rap better English than those who don’t, just because of the numbers and experiences.
Don’t be mad at me. We have tons of other stuff that we agree on 100%. You’ve explained other things to me, and I’ve seen them. In this case, I don’t see it as you do, probably–and this is where I can admit some bias–because I was not raised in an English speaking environment within an Asian country.
So can I just say that I currently don’t see it, but that given exposure to international schools in Asia, I someday might? Maybe that’s why privileged white people don’t see things too. I don’t see it because I literally haven’t seen it.
maloy
7:44 am | May 02, 2008oh my god…you’re missing the point. i don’t care if you disagree with me. most of my friends disagree with me politically, they think i’m crazy for being so pro-authoritarian governments. it doesn’t bother me because everyone is entitled to their opinion. the issue here is not of disagreement but your refusal to acknowledge your bias and prejudice against asians.
jesus christ, dude, even your example with the rappers is so fucking ridiculous. do you honestly think that these privileged, hard-studying kids in korea would want to throw all that work away to be rappers????? you can’t even fucking compare. i’m just flabbergasted: it’s like if i said how come no exeter kids are rappers, is it because their command of english is too crappy for them to flow properly?
lord have mercy. i give up.
i can’t waste my time on this bullshit anymore. i really used to assume that asian americans and transnational asians could do really productive shit together, but uncle phil on fresh prince was right. if you assume, it makes an ass out of u and me.
good luck, guys. you’ll need it.
maloy
7:46 am | May 02, 2008ps. the “seeing to believe” line of argument is a terrible, weak one.
nightshade
10:12 am | May 02, 2008jaehwan,
You’re getting to the point where you’re pretty much saying, “I’m sorry you’re offended.”
You really have to stop arguing here and actually try to see the point. There’s no defense to mount–you were in the wrong. I thought the statement was fucked up too.
jaehwan
12:15 pm | May 02, 2008I’d have said the exact same thing if the article was writing about kids in France or Spain or Nigeria. It’s got nothing to do with the fact that they’re Asian but that they live and are from a non-English speaking country. But I didn’t mean to demean anyone in any way.
Most of these prospective Asian American rappers and performers come from middle class backgrounds. Even that guy Lee Hom Wang comes from a privileged background. Actually, one of the top rappers in Japan comes from a privileged International School background. He raps in English and Japanese. I don’t think he threw anything away–he probably has more bank than the entire 44’s crew put together.
I hope we still can, but obviously it’s not going to be smooth sailing the whole time, given the fact that we live so far apart and have different experiences.
It’s clear that my statement was offensive to both you and nightshade, and I know both of you are intelligent and reasonable people. I retract my statement without any ifs, ands, or buts. I’m really sorry for offending you, and I’ll stop.
sirandal
12:30 am | Jun 26, 2008Hi I teach at Daewon and I can shed some light on this article since I know that much of it must have left people scratching their heads.
The undocumented truth that is not being told in the article is that not all the students at Daewon take the SAT (since many of them have no interest in attending American universities.) The students who DO take the test definitely deserve the recognition they got for their achievement, but it’s a small percentage of the total student body. Also most of those kids (if not a vast majority) have lived in some kind of English speaking country (if not the USA) for a significant percentage of their life.
jaehwan
11:49 am | Jun 26, 2008Thank you, Sirandal! That makes total sense. I guess we weren’t talking about the average of ALL students.
That was exactly the question/possibility that I was trying to raise when I said that I would NOT be surprised if the valedictorian of Daewon beat the valedictorian of Exeter. It was also my question in post #10 about Daewon not being an international school. I could understand if there are a few super-achievers, maybe even a significant amount of superachievers, but I couldn’t figure out how the grand average were doing so well in a non-native language; not because I thought they were less intelligent, but because most come from a non-English background and are pulled from the Korean populace for many talents, not just English and/or language. I guess we were talking only about the average of those who took the test, and it was just a small percentage.
Your explanation makes total sense. Thanks so much for shedding light on my question! I’m so glad you came to our board! Now I no longer have to stay up late at night thinking about this!
sirandal
5:23 am | Jun 27, 2008It’s my pleasure. To elaborate, the students who *usually* take the SATs (now that is not to say that others don’t, of course) at our school already participate in a special accelerated program, and many of those classes are taught in English. I would say that probably of all the students in our school around 200 of them take the SAT, but those 200 are pretty self-selected to achieve.
Something that was mentioned in the nytimes.com article and does reflect the truth is that many of our students also take the various Advanced Placement exams (in English) and score perfect scores. There are no AP classes offered at our school currently and, for the most part, those students self-study for the exams.
In general the article wasn’t well received by the students at Daewon. They felt that it cast their efforts in too negative of a light, especially the part about school romances. haha
jaehwan
1:05 am | Jun 28, 2008Haha…well, the American media likes to throw stuff like that in from time to time! When I first went to Japan, I was surprised by how alive the people were. And why wouldn’t they be alive??? It’s funny how our media sometimes perceives other groups of people. So there is an unintentional, misguided bias that somehow comes out on this side of the Pacific!
That’s also a pretty impressive stat about the AP classes. I actually think it’s much better that way. With AP classes, students study for the test. I would assume (though I don’t know) that not having AP classes would encourage kids to learn the subject better and study for the test on their own time.
By the way, referencing something that was said earlier in this Daewon conversation–I really would like to visit a place like Daewon someday. Not just to learn more about their SAT scores :), but also to learn more about where your students and teachers come from. It really is fascinating to learn about how things are done in different cultures.