Instead, Asian American feminism in its current form chooses to follow the White model. It fights AGAINST AAMs as if they hold the power in society. It believes in the racial stereotypes that society uses to oppress AAMs. This model of feminism shouldn’t even be called Asian American feminism. Instead, it is Asian Americans using regular, racially-ignorant feminism.

Well said, Ike.

I felt really bad when Mavs got banned, but we all warned him not to pick fights with with a seasoned brawler like maogirl. Poor guy got beaten then banned.

Anyway, I know he’s probably still active with the Asian American issues, and I hope he’s still doing well. Tell him I said hello.

Jenn banned maverick? Ike, do you know maverick outside of this site? Which one was he? Just curious.

As far as I know, Jenn hasn’t banned Maverick; I meant that he is banned on F44s. I met him through his Facebook group (), and I’ve hung out with him a few times IRL.

Excuse me for not reading the past 43 posts in it’s entirety, but what exactly is “Asian American Feminism”?

Technically speaking, the need for Asian American feminism stems from the fact that feminism has its roots in catering only to White women. White women who have no racial oppression to consider and can focus their energy on liberating themselves from the oppressive patriarchy.

Asian American feminism SHOULD take into consideration the fact that Asian American MEN do not hold the same privileges as White men. It SHOULD realize the need to work with AAMs on racial issues. It CANNOT be the same as the “f- everyone else” brand of White feminism. It needs to realize that, for AAFs, sexism and racism cannot be separated.

Instead, Asian American feminism in its current form chooses to follow the White model. It fights AGAINST AAMs as if they hold the power in society. It believes in the racial stereotypes that society uses to oppress AAMs. This model of feminism shouldn’t even be called Asian American feminism. Instead, it is Asian Americans using regular, racially-ignorant feminism.

However, there’s a schism between those of us who seek to define Asian American feminism as “Asian Americans addressing gender inequities through the Asian American community” (without blaming our community, or especially exclusively males for those inequities) and those who accept the above definition and they say it’s worthless and divisive.

Xian,

I actually think we’re much on the same page right now, with the only difference being the terminology that we use. To a certain degree, as you already know, I myself am what you would call a “feminist” since I support (and actively work for) equal rights and recognition for women. So I think we both agree that something needs to be done in order to empower Asian American women. I think the next step is for us to either:

a) Talk about how that might be done, and of course encourage women to participate in the discussion

or

b) Start taking small steps to make sure that a real “Asian American feminist” (or whatever we would call it) movement starts.

If you define “Asian American feminisms” as what you said, our guest thinks it’s needed as you explain. Everyone else here agrees that defining it that way simply attempts to single out Asian American misogyny in a racist way.

However, there’s a schism between those of us who seek to define Asian American feminism as “Asian Americans addressing gender inequities through the Asian American community” (without blaming our community, or especially exclusively males for those inequities) and those who accept the above definition and they say it’s worthless and divisive.

Is it some sort of movement to eliminate sexism between Asian American males and females? Or just sexism against Asian American females? Or sexism against all females in general?

The way I see it, the term “Asian American Feminism” sounds a lot like trying to eliminate some aspect of sexism between Asian American men and women, that doesn’t exist in any other culture in America. Is this correct?

I’m upset, but not surprised. The (banned) member who was “maverick” here was commenting prolifically on the blog.

Jenn banned maverick? Ike, do you know maverick outside of this site? Which one was he? Just curious. It was a shame he went down on the 44’s the way he did.

Check out my Part II on this subject.

Further, I never attacked Asian American males. I don’t think that all Asian males are sexist. I don’t think that most Asian males are sexist. I’ve gone to great pains to only say that some Asian males are sexist, because Asian male sexism exists. No better or worse than anyone else’s sexism, but it exists - a position you agree with Xian.

Just as racism is better dealt with by focusing on institutional racism rather than individual people who are racism, perhaps we should step back from comparing people’s sexism and look at the broader scope of a sexist system.

Asian Americans use the same institutions as the rest of America, and the dominant group in these institutions is white men. To focus on blaming Asian American men for the sexism that faces Asian American women detracts from focusing on the larger underlying issue.

The point is that poverty and institutional racism and sexism creates shitty conditions and those of us who have privilege should be trying to build our communities, not point fingers and slag an entire group of people.

Agreed. Dividing a minority community into factions that attack each other personally before focusing on the flawed American system is a classic divide-and-conquer strategy. Hm…

By the way, I think you and Jenn both expressed this, but let me get my turn: I’m also upset that this whole thing blew up the way it did.

I’m upset, but not surprised. The (banned) member who was “maverick” here was commenting prolifically on the blog.

You mean like responding to that post with another front page post that discusses the fact that feminism is a cornerstone of any social justice thinking or movement and that appropriation of it by misguided people like Tan or Kingston could never soil the righteousness of the central idea.
You are totally right. Somebody should right an article like that.

Xian, can you keep a secret? There’s this article that I found here that makes the exact same point that you make above. It’s written by this guy named “xian,” which coincidentally is also your username. Imagine that, two people with the same exact username wanting to talk about the exact same position on the exact same issue of Asian American feminism on the exact same 44’s site.

I used to watch the Twilight Zone, but this is just plain freaky!

C’mon Jae, that’s like saying because mainstream racism is pervasive across all minority communities, there’s no need for ethnicity based organizations. That might be true in the long-run, but it’s certainly not now, right.

I’ll try to explain better in my next blog post or two, but I’m totally for gender based ethnic groups. That is, I think if they feel it necessary, it’s a good thing for Asian American women to form their own groups and to fight for what they need, free from male intervention or control. So I think we agree that there is a need for Asian American female-based activism.

My question is whether or not these groups are necessarily “Asian American feminist,” with the keyword being “feminist.” When I responded in the comment section in the Social Justice article above (written by the other Xian, I said that I disagreed with a few of the paragraphs. Here’s why: Concepts like “equality” and “empathy” have always existed. They were rallying cries at certain points throughout history, but they’ve always been there. “Feminism,” on the other hand, really came about during the 60’s. They call it “second wave,” but if I’m not mistaken, it really was the first wave which identified its precursor wave as “first wave” since the term wasn’t used prior to the 60’s (or at least I don’t think it was.). It was absolutely necessary then, and feminists like Steinem and Friedan changed the world. But is that kind of feminism still relevant today?

Catty made a very good argument (”I’m Asian American and a feminist and therefore an Asian American feminist”), and I personally am fine with people calling themselves Asian American feminists, as long as they’re aware of possible divisiveness. I do think that if Asian American feminists are starting a new movement though, they need to identify it as such. It all goes back to winning and being as clear as possible with what we want.

Keep in mind that empowered Asian woman and Asian American feminist are not necessarily the same thing. Maogirl, for example, is very highly empowered, but she explicitly does not identify with feminism. I have a friend who is a high powered attorney, who owns her own business, and who does tons of work to encourage minority women in business, but she too doesn’t consider herself an Asian American feminist because she doesn’t see herself as having any philosophical similarities with the current movement.

Look at the current Asian American feminists right now. They are dogging people like you and me as we speak. See here . I mean, this is absolutely insane.

One commentator writes:

Personally I have strong doubts that these guys can be convinced that their outlook on women and life is not beneficial to anybody involved. I have tried to communicate with people on an individual basis, not necessarily on the issue of misogyny, but still relevant interpersonal conflicts, and it always seemed to be an utter waste of time. People rarely listen to and change. I find this is a quite cynical point of view and I don’t like it very much about myself, so it’s good to see someone being willing sacrifice time and energy to tackle this arduous task and spreading inspiration and the hope that there might come a change one day. I hope your works pays off and your dream of a strong Asian American community will happen one day.

The Kingstonian dream is not our dream. We say this over and over again, but no one listens.

You and I both know that nothing we said was out of line on Jenn’s blog; we were just asking for clarification and understanding. This whole thing started because somehow someone said that the 44’s was sexist. And I understand that emotions get involved, but this is exactly the legacy of how “Asian American feminism” has been practiced–ready, aim at the Asian guys, fire. It’s gotta stop.

So let me just clarify my position–I don’t believe that Asian American feminism, as it is practiced, is a good thing. But if it really is a concept with a core, fundamental meaning, then maybe it can be reinvented today. If it is, I truly believe that that meaning must be stated explicitly in order to rally the troops and win. Otherwise, it’ll face the same frustrations that exasperated Jenn.

By the way, I think you and Jenn both expressed this, but let me get my turn: I’m also upset that this whole thing blew up the way it did. It’s frustrating to speak and never be heard.

But I don’t agree that there’s no place for Asian American feminism and if it seems like AA feminism starts and end with Kingston-ish folks, that’s just because you are buying into a fake feminism defined by white America.

It was the same kind of feminism that I studied in my Asian American Studies classes, and it’s pretty strong even among the ethnic studies professors today. It’s possible that it is being defined by white America through the educational system–that was one of Said’s theories.

BTW, I do like the feminists you mention, but they’re mostly underground. If they want to step it up and make it big, positions on history and their style of analysis will have to be explicit. (I’ll try to explain this in my next blog post…)

No one said that you couldn’t express an opinion, crybaby. But when you’re acting like a condescending little bitch, and being so fucking oppressive about defining feminism ON YOUR TERMS to actual Asian American women, we’re going to call you out on it.

Stop pulling the, “Oh, you all R BUNCH OF AZN NAZIS” bullshit. We hear it all the time from douchebags. I didn’t expect to hear it from you.

Just because I don’t think that feminism is about the right to fuck non-Asian men doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in improving the conditions for women living in poverty, or encouraging young women in my community to pursue their dreams, rights, and freedoms.

I’m so sick of stupid fake feminists and their misguided allies who think that sex is at the forefront of feminism–WTF. IT’S NOT THE FUCKING POINT. This is why Kingston and Tan are shitlisted–they don’t get the point.

The point is that poverty and institutional racism and sexism creates shitty conditions and those of us who have privilege should be trying to build our communities, not point fingers and slag an entire group of people.

I think this is so much more important than dating and IR. (I only bring this shit up because you dragged it into the argument, MM.) I can read Sophie Kinsella or Candace Bushell if I want a helping of the relationship retardation and OMG SEX IS SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE I’M A HOT WOMAN IN CONTROL OF MY BODY that passes for writing.

Jaehwan didn’t say FEMINISM SUX, OMG I HATE ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN. He wrote that he have to address some fundamental issues specific to our community and work together to build a sound foundation, where there can be a healthy form of feminism.