Asian American Feminism
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This is my opinion on an important topic, and it does not necessarily reflect the viewpoints of the owners, the admins, or any of the members of the Fighting 44’s. It’s the viewpoint of me, Jaehwan, and Jaehwan alone, and I leave it to the rest of you to form your own view. Read on, fellow 44’s, and make your own decision.
A debate over feminism has come up on these two blogs:
The first blog is from our friend Jenn at Reappropriate, and the second is her partner James. You can see the original post here, you can see James’s blog post here (and he references a quote that I made), and you can see a debate on Jenn’s blog over here.
It’s no secret that one of the biggest problems in Asian American activism is the rift between men and women, particularly when there are self-identified “Asian American feminists” involved. In my experiences, both on the web and on the ground in real life, whenever “Asian American feminists” get involved in any kind of Asian American activism, it creates a rift so big that it prevents the two genders from working together. They’ll usually force out all the men and women who support the men, and then they’ll complain that Asian Americans are apathetic. Here at the 44’s, we have some women who self-identify as “feminists,” but to the best of my knowledge, we have no “Asian American feminists.” The reason is obvious. Women who identify as “feminists” usually fight against a system of sexism, while women who identify themselves as “Asian American feminists,” people such as Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan, usually fight against Asian American men. Feminists attack a system, while Asian American feminists attack people. More specifically, they attack people based on race and gender.
Maxine Hong Kingston, for example, shamed Asian people by making the false claim that the Chinese word for “slave” and “woman” was the same. She portrayed footbinding as some kind of ritual Chinese practice, despite the fact that it only took place among the upper class–which wasn’t all that large in pre-modern China. A crime? Yes. An epidemic? Not by a long shot. Amy Tan made up orientalist stories where women cut their flesh to make soup, stories that her white audience bought up and cried tears over. She depicted Asian men as rapists and spendthrifts, much in contrast to the white Jesus figures with whom her Asian female characters fall in love. It’s incredibly ironic that despite their claims to stand up for us as Asian Americans, these so-called Asian American feminists seem to rehash the age-old orientalist notions of a feminine orient and a masculine occident. Indeed, it seems that the ultimate path that the Kingstonians seem to preach is that Asian women can find themselves by embracing white men and Eurocentric culture.
Now it’s hard for many Asian Americans to accept these “Asian American feminist” attacks.It’s hard for us, both men and women, to sit back while people slander our ancestors in order to ingratiate themselves with the majority culture. The lies are so vicious that even modern “Asian American feminists” cannot acknowledge any truth in them. Jenn has defended Kingston, but while she stops short of calling them lies, even she has called Kingston’s slave/woman mischaracterization “ill-advised.”
Has Asian American feminism ever accomplished anything worthwhile? I’ll be honest; I don’t believe it has. Asian American women still get objectified more than other women of color, and they still face stereotypes that keep people thinking of them as submissive, sexual beings. The suicide rate is through the roof. I’ve never seen Kingston or Tan speaking out against objectification; the only time we ever see those two is if they’re accepting awards from white people, giving diversity pep talks, or thinking of new ways to make money by selling orientalism to an ignorant public.
Asian American feminists write garbage like this.
Now despite our differences in opinion, both Jenn and James are fairly sensible on most issues, and they ask quite rightly whether it’s possible that Asian American feminism can evolve. Our friend James–who is not Asian American–asks:
Lastly - and this is what really bothers me - why can’t some Asian American men admit that minority feminism can evolve? What is the problem? I don’t expect Black feminists to parrot Sojourner Truth at a Tavis Smiley conference in 2008.
Well, James, indeed, it’s a good question. Yes, Asian American feminism can evolve. Or rather, it could have evolved. Most trends have the potential to evolve. However, the more important question is this–has it evolved? And the answer is an unequivocal NO. It was broken to begin with, and it remains broken today.
For example, has there ever been any tradition in the Asian American feminist movement that Asian Americans today can view with pride? Sojourner Truth, regardless of whether her issues are still relevant today, fought and won many battles against slavery, she helped recruit black soldiers, and she led an exemplary life that has been lionized by freedom fighters in civil rights. We could also list great achievements for people like Zora Neale Hurston, Rosa Parks, and Toni Morrison.
The same is not true of Asian American feminism. With the exception of Helen Zia, have any Asian American feminists done anything of note? (And no, Yuri Kochiyama was never an “Asian American feminist” until the Kingstonians put that label on her during the later years.) Do any intelligent and compassionate Asian American women point to any of these Asian American feminists as role models? The intelligent and compassionate ones admire Asian American women, but they never admire the AA feminists. As far as I know, not even reappropriate points to great role models in the Asian American feminist movement. Effective propagandists, yes. Role models? No.
Now returning to our friend James–what if Asian American feminism were to evolve? In the future, could it evolve?
I’ve reached a conclusion in just the last few days: I don’t believe it can. There has been so much nonsense and lies spoken in the name of Asian American feminism that the name has been tarnished. If you call yourself an “Asian American feminist,” you are unlikely to get support from any Asian American men or any Asian American women who support Asian American men. The symbolism is too strong. It’s much the same with white Dixiecrats and black people–no matter how good a person you are, if you’re a white guy claiming to be “Dixiecrat,” prepare to get the cold shoulder from those whom the Dixiecrats have historically attacked. The Confederate flag still carries historical meaning, regardless of what modern “Southern pride” people claim, and the same is no less true for the Asian American men on the receiving end of the so-called Asian American feminist movement. White guys with low self-esteem love Asian American feminism because it raises them on a pedestal, but we Asian men usually find better things to do with our time.
Obviously sexism exists, but Asian American feminism, due to the wrongful actions of the misguided leaders during the late 20th century, is not the vehicle for the fight. It’s dead, and the crooked legacy of Kingstonism lives on. Asian American women who move under this banner will find that everyone runs in the other direction. Everyone wants change. We want better gender relations, better empowerment, and more equality. We need to avoid the tarnished legacy of movements that divide us, and we need to fight together. I, for one, am tired from fielding the relentless attacks from Asian American feminists that dictate what I’m supposed to feel and how I’m supposed to be more like the white men whom most of them deify, even though they constantly remind us that I will never be as good as white.
In order to get along and to work together, we need for the Asian American feminists to switch sides. It’s much easier for Asian American feminists to become non-Asian American feminists than it is for Asian men to become white men.
As the ever perspicacious (female) 44 nightshade said in another blog entry (#16),
I think if real Asian American feminism were to come about, it wouldn’t be about dogging Asian American men. It couldn’t because Asian American men don’t hold the oppressive patriarchal power in the US or in Canada–well at least, they don’t for the Asian Asian women who have access to feminist and post-colonial thought. I can’t speak for the women who are living in poverty and must depend on their fathers or husbands for everything.
If a real Asian American feminism were to come about, it would be centered on dismantling the white patriarchy, and it would include Asian American men in the fight. There can be no Asian American feminism without first addressing the fight for racial equality.
Nightshade is 100% correct. Let’s fight for racial equality together. We can fight for racial equality, and we can fight for gender equality at the same time. Nightshade’s approach is fifty times more powerful than anything the Asian American feminists have dreamed up, and the reason is simple: in her prescription, we fight together towards a common cause, rather than against one another. Let’s move away from the crimes of the past. Let’s create cultural power together and create a society where we all can thrive and raise one another up.
Fin.
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nightshade
2:48 am | Mar 27, 2008Dude, you’ve been on fire lately. I’d been thinking about writing something on this topic. But I’ve been watching Korean dramas and being lazy.
Oh, man. I made such a giant typo in that post that you quoted.
I need to go read those posts that you’re referring to, but here’s to working together to address the inequalities that we all face.
Pat the Great
3:41 am | Mar 27, 2008this piece might be a little more effective if you contextualized the conversation a little bit more. actually, all three of the articles in question would be really really nice.
i think there is a personal truth for Tan and Kingston behind their stories, or else they wouldn’t have written them. they probably did feel oppressed along gender lines by asian men. and so they responded the way they did and wrote what they did, just like ms. expressed what she felt and wrote what she did. there is truth there, and no matter how poorly conceived or short-sighted their collective responses to those personal truths were, i don’t think i could deny them those initial experiences.
to do so would be to deny that asian american men do not benefit from the patriarchical system, and from my experiences i would say that we do. i’ve seen it happen in countless environments; API group interactions, mixed interactions, and all sorts of individual interactions, both my own and the people around me. there is no question, to me, that asian american men benefit from male privilege - it just takes a while to learn how to name it, and to change it. exactly how it happens is simply defined by the nature of the interaction. acknowledging and combating this, to me, is feminism. so I identify myself as a feminist and an asian american, but i don’t seem to fall into the group of people that you’re talking about.
Scowl
5:00 am | Mar 27, 2008Looks like I’m not the only one up at ungodly hours.
Pat the Great
5:34 am | Mar 27, 2008…i’m in japan. it’s 6pm. what’s your excuse?
kimtae
9:38 am | Mar 27, 2008Scowl doesn’t sleep, I thought everyone knew that.
Jaehwan, great stuff.
jaehwan
4:13 pm | Mar 27, 2008Hey, thanks Kimtae and Nightshade!
I’m definitely looking forward to working together. Nightshade, I actually got the idea from this piece from my conversations with you and maogirl, so in a sense, we’ve already started working together!
Pat,
Thanks for your comments!
I linked in the third paragraph to James and Jenn’s posts, but there is one more precursor to the conversation that people may find interesting. You can find that here if you click on the Comments link.
The problem with the “personal truth” argument is that Kingston and Tan’s work extends beyond the personal. To make a claim about Chinese language, for example, is a claim about Chinese language, not a claim about one’s feelings or experiences. They are generalizing a culture; they aren’t just emoting their own personal truths. Think about it this way–if a white person were to write a book about how black people worshiped malt liquor, would we consider that a “personal truth?” We wouldn’t. It goes well beyond any kind of objective or even subjective portrayal of what’s actually there.
I’d agree with this. I’m not saying sexism doesn’t exist, and I agree that we need to change the system. But part of fighting sexism, I think, is truth and respect. If an AA feminist tells you that you come from a culture where women cut themselves in order to make soup, they’re not being truthful or respectful. If an AA feminist holds up white men as the epitome of masculinity, she is not challenging the system which is responsible for most of her complaints–she’s scapegoating.
I can understand how you might say that you are feminist because you want equal rights and want to get rid of male privilege. I’m in the same camp on the equal rights and privilege thing. And though I think Asian American feminism is useless, I think feminism has done great things in the past. However, is it possible to divorce good intentions in people who want equal rights from the shady past of the Asian American feminist movement? Also, there remains the general question: is feminism the way to do it in this day and age? Being pro-female and feminist are not necessarily the same thing.
Check out this article about Michael Gurian and “womanism” here.
I agree with the article’s author that the book was a bit weak and that some of the descriptions sound like a throwback against independence–Gurian is an expert on boys, not girls–but I also agree with the author when she says that there are some very potent ideas that Gurian presents.
Xian
6:57 pm | Mar 27, 2008Nice piece.
I guess I would wonder whether Tan and Kingston began with the goal of being the basis of stereotyping all of Asian America. It’s part of the problem of institutions of racism and sexism that they automatically take whatever they choose to elevate from a community and then apply it to the whole community at an obnoxious rate.
It’s the “rubber ducky principle”. Basically, if I as an Asian American male showed up on the Tonight Show with a rubber ducky on my head, for the next 3,000 years every single Asian American man would have to endure assholes saying and shouting from passing cars, “Rubber Ducky!
Writers often adjust to their audiences. Both Kingston and Tan have written great pieces, but they tend to have responded positively to quasi-progressive white audiences’ deification of them.
Personally, I would just tell white America to fuck off, but we can certainly understand why some would warm to the attention and start to write even more exotified crap and abandon the good work that they’ve done that has been rendered obscure.
Contrast them with someone like Lisa See, whom I have not read all of her stuff, but I’m pretty sure all roundly sucks. Lisa See with her chinkified make-up makes Amy Tan look like Yuri Kochiyama.
Cattygurl
4:34 am | Mar 28, 2008It’s interesting that you talk about this, because I have rarely heard Amy Tan or Maxine mentioned as feminists outside of Asian-American circles. Maybe it’s my specific circle at as they tend to be very politically minded folks, because when I mention asian-american feminists, I’m much more likely to hear lawyers/judges/activists get mentioned, I have yet to hear Amy Tan or Maxine get exemplified as a feminist. Famous female writers- yes. Famous Asian-America writers, sure. Feminist writers, actually- no. In fact, I remember reading a criticism of Amy Tan’s books and how the female characters are often in this position of being disappointed by men, being victimized, and in the end, wanting approval from men. I remember laughing because the author of the article compared Amy Tan’s novels to Harlequin novels.
Pat the Great
4:36 am | Mar 28, 2008read the article you linked to. it sounds like essentialist garbage to me. i don’t buy it. whatever i am, i am most definitely not a ‘womanist’.
Cattygurl
4:42 am | Mar 28, 2008I’m with Pat here. Didn’t care for Gurian’s book, to be honest with you, either. I tried to read it because a friend’s mom lauded over it, and couldn’t get into the basic message at all.
Cattygurl
4:59 am | Mar 28, 2008It’s late at night and I’m brimming with Benadryl at the moment, so excuse me if my writing is unclear.
Do I consider myself to be Asian-american? Check. Do I consider myself feminist? Check. Do I consider myself an Asian-American feminist? Check. After all, I am Asian-american and Feminist, one doesn’t precede the other, they’re both part and parcel of who I am.
The question is whether we re-define for ourselves what that means. I don’t honestly consider either Maxine or Amy to be feminist writers. They’re Asian-american writers, but they really don’t define feminism. They’re free to identify themselves as whatever they want- crap- Ann Coulter’s free to call herself a true feminist if she wants to. doesn’t mean I have to accept it or identify with them in any way.
jaehwan
12:44 pm | Mar 28, 2008Guys and gals,
I’m loving this “blockquote” function in the blog!
Xian:
There used to be an article on the web about how Maxine wrote a letter to Frank Chin asking for some kind words that she could put on the cover of her book. He responded that her orientalist pseudo-biography would become fodder for white supremacists and white feminists. It may not have been the nicest response, but he was right. Yet Maxine went right along and continued forward.
I guess we never know anyone’s true intentions. This is why I think we need to look at results rather than intention. What have they done?
I also like your point that writers adjust to their audiences. It’s very true, and it’s something that one cannot take out of the equation. It’s amazing how authors almost automatically fall into the dominant culture’s structure when they get interviewed or when they react to their audiences.
Pat:
It’s like “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” for childrearing. There are boys who act like girls, and girls who act like boys, but he’s trying to describe a trend rooted in biology.
When my son’s doctors say stuff like, “Boys usually do this or that at this age,” are they being essentialist or sexist? I don’t think so. They’re just saying that there are usually gender-based differences, and that generalizations are useful. The whole practice of medicine is based on generalizations. Is this bad? If it helps me understand my son better, I would say no.
Catty:
I agree that Asian American circles are usually the ones in which they are viewed as Asian American feminist. But does this say something about us? If we view it as AA feminist, we have to be right since it’s our culture. Those judges and lawyers may be viewed as feminist, but do they use the term on themselves? I think it’s rare that they do.
Yeah, I’m in agreement with you. I read it because “The Wonder of Boys” was AWESOME, but “The Wonder of Girls” fell really short. He did preface it by saying he was an expert in boys, not girls, but it still fell short. It was almost like an afterthought.
Actually, I was thinking of you when I said that some 44’s call themselves feminists.
As you mentioned, Maxine and company are viewed in Asian American circles as being “Asian American feminist.” It has been a divisive term, and historically, it’s been one of the main cultural movements to spread stereotypes against Asian American men and Asian culture. It’s done terrible things to us both externally and internally, and at what price? Kingstonians have never done anything to challenge the mainstream system.
My main concern is progress. Is it possible to progress if AA men and women don’t work together? Is it possible to work together if we continue to use a movement that has historically kept us down?
I think it’s much like the Confederate flag. Should Southern whites be proud of their culture? Probably so. Country music, blues, Mark Twain, Eudora Welty…they’ve produced great things. But how will they ever redefine meaning for that flag of theirs when it’s been used to represent something else?
Interested in your thoughts.
MelaninManson
2:11 pm | Mar 28, 2008Jaehwan, thanks for linking to my site. I wrote this comment on Reappropriate, but I think it’s applicable here as well. Kudos for a well written post.
I think it’s fair to oppose the notion that one can define an entire sociopolitical perspective — Asian American feminism — with two authors alone. Even communism gained definition outside of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin. Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan do not produce the vast majority of Asian American feminist writing - at best they provide examples of minority writing commodification by large-scale publishing houses.
Let’s be clear: one of the reasons that Tan and Kingston could write best-sellers that mainstream Americans would buy revolves around the marketable Orientalist fetish mainstream Americans exude.
Likewise, I wouldn’t count Anchee Min’s Red Azalea as an ‘Asian American feminist’ text, but I can’t ignore that that book revolves around a personal narrative that displays the excesses of Chinese communism towards women for mainstream American audiences eager to feel patriotic superiority over modern China.
The point? If Asian American men eager to dismiss feminism (and only engage the political will of the Asian American community for their male-centered interests alone) persist in characterizing all Asian American feminism as suspect because of an association with Kingston and Tan, then that very denial becomes too sexist to persuade others. Everyone knows that Kingston and Tan are as dated for Asian American women today as Sojourner Truth and Anna Julia Cooper are for Black women today.
To all Asian American men upset with Asian American feminism: when you oppose all early instances of a philosophy and ignore it’s modern examples in order to decry the entire philosophy - then and now - you commit an intellectually disingenuous and dishonest act. As least read the modern examples before you toss out the bathwater. Helen Zia’s a decent start, as is reappropriate.com.
Lastly Jaehwan, I think Asian American feminism has evolved. The prevalence of Asian American women in scientific and business fields today, in comparison to twenty or thirty years ago, speaks volumes about the opportunities Asian American women utilize for their and their community’s benefit today.
It’s not uncommon to find a professional Asian American woman in this country’s corporate boardrooms and research labs, even when a African American or Latina woman still elicits double takes among her peers. Asian American feminism can withstand a fair critique, but let’s not ignore its merits.
Cattygurl
5:16 pm | Mar 28, 2008The thing is, do we have to define AA feminism around Tan and Kingston? The issue around that is, of course if we define AA feminism around women who aren’t exactly feminists, much less activists, we’re not going to see any progress. So why do we continue to define it around these women and not others? The thing is, many AA feminists I’ve met don’t even cite Tan or Kingston. They’re more likely to point to other figures that get no mention or respect- and yes, I do believe Yuri Kochiyama is an Asian-American feminist in the sense that she’s Asian -American and she identifies herself as a feminist.
I’ll give Tan something, even if I don’t care for her books- she does write to a female audience, and she does write about the mother-daughter bond. With most women that I have talked to that enjoys her book, a lot of them enjoy the fact that she’s writing to a female audience, focusing on female relationships.
I’ll be honest- I have a problem that she’s been given the pedestal as *the* Asian-American writer, especially within the AA community. I have an issue with her being labeled as *the* Asian-american feminist, when she’s not even an activist in any way. In fact, I think the AA community constantly mentions and talks about her more than anyone else. I think it’s about time we focus the spotlight on others within our community.
jaehwan
10:52 pm | Mar 28, 2008Everyone,
I think we all agree, James included, that Kingston and Tan are not the best role models. It seems like we’re all trying to get past the legacy they created. So we’re agreeing on the major part of the discussion.
Catty,
I think this “feminism” issue is one that would probably be less of an issue if we were all discussing this in person, rather than on a website. Websites focus on pure words, and so I think we often miss the human cues that are present in non-web based interactions.
So to answer your question of whether we have to define AA feminism around Tan and Kingston–I think we do, but I’ll admit that I could be wrong. Kingston was the one who started Asian American feminism. She has claimed to be an Asian American feminist, and Tan has been an activist by traveling around and talking about diversity (she came to Portland last year). For the longest time, they’ve been the most prominent Asian American feminists, despite the fact that they’ve done so many culturally and morally questionable things.
I understand what you’re saying about re-defining it, but at this point, is it still politically possible?
I think of movements as being similar to companies. Arthur Anderson once had the most talented crew of accountants. When they messed up by illegally shredding documents related to Enron, all the talent left. No one wanted to be associated with it. Their wikipedia entry says that they’re still in business, but with such a tarnished name, can they ever come back? With Asian American feminism, they also had the talent–Amy is a decent storyteller–but they never really had the integrity that is necessary for leadership. With such a tarnished name and without any real big successes outside of making lots of money, can they ever do anything good? Will the talent move towards the movement or away from it?
MelaninManson,
Thanks for posting!
Let’s return to the Confederate flag example. The Confederate flag stands for southern pride, land of Eudora Welty, great BBQ, and the blues. Now if I’m a white guy and I say, “Melanin, you’re from Virginia, and we need to protect the heritage of southern culture personified by great food, great music, and great literature,” and then I ask you to wear a celebratory T-shirt with a Confederate flag, would you do it? More to the point, would you feel comfortable walking into a group of southern black people with that T-shirt and asking them to support you? At the very best, you’d get ignored, at the very worst, people would get angry and ask you to leave.
I can sit there and shoot my mouth off complaining about your lack of solidarity with your Virginian brethren. I could accuse you of turning your back on your state, and I could say that you’re a Southern sellout. But it wouldn’t make the slightest difference–either to you, or to the many other black southerners who you know.
The same is true of Asian American feminism. You see what always happens on Jenn’s site whenever that feminist thing comes up. People get tense and angry at the lies that have historically come from Kingston and Tan and their supporters. It never has anything to do with equal rights, rather it has to do with their attacks on Asian culture and Asian men. We both agree that Kingstonism doesn’t do much for most of us, now the question is whether or not we can re-define and re-direct a movement that she launched against us.
Yes, but is that a result of Asian American feminism, or is that a result of female empowerment in general? There are probably more Asian American men in research labs than black men too, so does this mean that the Asian American civil rights movement had more merit than the African American civil rights movement? Should Martin Luther King have followed the Asian American male example by not organizing a bus boycott? Probably not. More likely, it has more to do with the different stereotypes associated with Asian and black people, or it has to do with different cultural circumstances.
One last VERY IMPORTANT thing: I think Asian American feminism, as it has been historically defined and practiced, hurts both Asian American men and Asian American women. I don’t think it just hurts one gender.
A point that I made in my FalloutCentral podcast with Jenn is that I believe there is an opportunity cost to supporting certain Asian American feminist works like “Falling for Grace”–and Jenn herself said that it was a feminist movie. The cost goes back to what Nightshade said about supporting each other. We lose the ability to work together when half of us support something that has historically slandered the other half. Who knows how much easier it would be if both genders were to come together to fight for a common cause?
nskripchun
6:28 am | Mar 29, 2008It’s been a busy week, and I’ve finally gotten around to reading this…
good article, jaehwan!
MelaninManson
12:18 pm | Mar 29, 2008People get tense and angry at the lies that have historically come from Kingston and Tan and their supporters. It never has anything to do with equal rights, rather it has to do with their attacks on Asian culture and Asian men. - Jaehwan
Jaehwan, people get tense and angry because Asian American feminism (in all its iterations) encourages Asian American women to make their own decisions, regardless of the influences of male-dominated popular or intra-communal culture. Many Asian men do not respect that concept when it’s applied to Asian female personal lives or political activism.
Your average Asian guy who’s upset over something at Jenn’s site never mentions Kingston and Tan. They wax philosophical about how ‘hurt’ they are over WM/AF dating, and/or Asian women who do not combat Asian male stereotypes in media to the exclusion of all other political issues.
Further, an assertive Asian American female - for some - becomes evidence of an impossible sexual gulf within the politicized Asian American community. Many men who read Jenn’s site are totally fine with the content - until they realize that they can’t set the political agenda on everything, and that a responsible Asian American politics needs to combat corporate American glass ceilings and Asian American domestic violence.
Asian American feminism wants to focus the community on its mental health issues, and the gendered differences in the suicide rate, but too many Asian American men would rather discuss interracial dating ad nauseam. It’s damn near impossible to forge an activist coalition against Hollywood media stereotypes or the latest anti-Asian hatespeech from some random corporate entity, because if Asian women spearhead the marches and the letter-writing campaigns, Asian men scrutinize their dating choices to criticize their moral authority to lead the community.
Jenn herself has been told repeatedly that she shouldn’t expect the Asian American community to follow her lead on anything because her private life disqualifies her from gaining support from Asian men.
No Jaehwan, it’s not about Kingston and Tan. Those authors are scapegoats for the larger problem. It’s about Asian men who refuse to listen to women — especially when they’re right. It’s about Asian men who ignore the serious problems that cripple their community because they indulge a myopic fixation on their own sexual insecurities. It’s about Asian men who wish to spearhead community activism without respecting the activism of half of the community.
Jaehwan, this is about Asian male sexism. That is the problem.
Take Fay Ann Lee. Her Falling for Grace centers on Asian female empowerment through a journey that encourages the protagonist to stop prioritizing Whiteness and start respecting her Chinese culture and heritage. It’s a cultural coming of age story that only uses White actors as foils and props, and humanizes the Asian American female experience in a nuanced and complicated way.
It’s not Oscar worthy, but it deserves community support, and it may not gain that because too many Asian men can’t see past the male romantic lead.
That disgusts me: not just because of the obvious sexism, but because that’s exactly how some Black men treated Waiting to Exhale and The Color Purple. Like some Asian men with Falling for Grace, some Black men took one look at the treatment of Black masculinity in those films and rejected everything, as if nothing could be good for the community that asked stark questions about Black male sexuality. This was foolish then, and it’s foolish now.
Some Asian men promote the same knee-jerk sexism against Jenn and her brand of Asian American feminism. Not because of Kingston and Tan, but because these men can’t handle the critique Asian American feminism presents the community - that Asian male sexism damages the community along with pervasive institutional racism. When shall your community grapple with that?
CJF
2:07 pm | Mar 29, 2008Melanin,
Does AA Feminism really encourage women to make their own decisions? Or does it portray Asian American women as weak individuals who need to spend money on Amy Tan and Kingston books to help boost their self esteem, and tell them how to get out of their culture?
Do we need more depressed Amy Tan’s writing books of Asian women being in relationships where they are submissive, whether it be a white or asian partner?
jaehwan
4:47 pm | Mar 29, 2008Melanin,
I have the same questions as CJF.
But I also have another question: Where are you getting all your information?
For example:
I’ve never ever heard this from Asian American men whether it’s here or in my own local group. Tense and angry over Asian American women making their own decisions? If this is what you think of us Asian American men, I think some proof or evidence is in order. I’ve never seen it or heard it.
Well, maybe I’ve seen or heard it on Jenn’s board. But as you know, some of those guys are crazy. One of them even threatened violence against some restaurant owner which is why Jenn started banning people. I don’t think they really represent your average Asian American guy. Those reappropriate guys are really out of control.
Well, returning to the last sentence of post #15, I think some of those other issues might be solved by bringing us all together. And we’re not going to all come together if half the community’s concerns regarding IR are dismissed by a certain vocal minority.
Again, where are you getting your information?
She’s probably been told this by certain Asian American feminists as a means of further dismissing the concerns of Asian men. Vicki Shu Smolin has had tons of support from men and women. We’ve got a number of local Asian American female leaders here who married non-Asians, and if you’d like to talk to them personally, shoot me an e-mail, and I’ll gladly hook you up. I don’t see why Jenn would be any different. These Kingstonians are getting in your head through fear tactics.
Again, where are you getting your info? I think you need to go out and meet actual Asian Americans. Or maybe hang out here for a while. The world is a scary place, but Asian Americans are not nearly as bad as some people would have you believe.
You speak with authority, but where are you getting your info?
blockthebox
11:49 pm | Mar 29, 2008Sigh. Jaehwan, haven’t we been through this before with this guy? How does he speak so authoritatively? Because anytime you repeat the same thing in a slightly different way by choosing which points you want to address, you start to sound like you know what you’re talking about when really you don’t have a clue.
AS AN ASIAN AMERICAN WOMAN, I’m offended by MelaninManson’s attempt to speak for what he believes Asian American feminism stands for and the injustices he thinks Asian American men have committed against Asian American women. These AA men are my family and my lovers. What the hell does he know about it?
So fuck MelaninManson. His baseless accusations about Asian American men being sexists pigs (and thus, “the problem” that fractures the AA community) are about as believable as an Asian American man claiming all AA women are sellout whores.
Scowl
2:14 am | Mar 30, 2008Is “Falling for Grace” the one in which the writer screened the film at Tsinghua University in Beijing in order to gauge the “Asian” reaction to seeing AF/WM on screen?
Or was that “Saving Face?” It gets kind of hard to tell some of these films apart, most of the names sound so similar.
nightshade
2:59 am | Mar 30, 2008Isn’t Saving Face a queer Asian film?
jaehwan
11:52 pm | Mar 30, 2008Well said, BTB! You have probably said something similar many times, but it’s good to have people hear an Asian American female’s perspective on this issue once again! I actually think it would be great to have them hear it over and over and over. And maybe the “fuck MelaninManson” will get MelaninMason thinking. MelaninManson, I mean no offense, but I hope you’re listening with open ears–you need a kick in the pants from a real Asian American who actually interacts with other Asian Americans. BTB is a real Asian American woman, not some fictional figure in an Amy Tan novel.
I actually like MelaninManson a lot, which is why I continue the discussion. I like Jenn too, who just took a hiatus from her her blog and put MelaninMason, a.k.a. electroman, in charge during her absence. The reason I continue the discussion is because those two clearly have a lot of energy and organizational abilities, and I’d love to see them apply it to real Asian American empowerment, rather than the smoke screens created by Asian American feminism–and again, I’m mostly talking about how it has historically been practiced along with the postmodern, deconstructionist thought process that most proponents still use today. BTB, you’re totally right about this dismissiveness being offensive. It’s like Asian men are guilty before even being charged, and the so-called Asian American feminist becomes judge, jury, and executioner. This was basically the gist of my blog post–Asian American feminism, as it has been practiced, is simply just racism against Asian men.
I mean, come on. If you look at Jenn’s blog (here and here), she accuses Xian of being dismissive and sexist. Xian? A sexist? Xian, the guy who is famous for his excellent arguments based on empathy? Xian, the guy who wrote this? It’s kind of like accusing John Brown of being racist against blacks!
Melanin,
I like your fire, and if you and Jenn are ever in the Portland area, I’d like to introduce you to some real Asian Americans who don’t fit the stereotypes of what the Asian American Kingstonians say we are like. I’m not sure if we’re going to get past these academic debates without introducing you to real people–certain orientalists have put out ideas into the general culture that simply aren’t true–and I’m going to say that from my real experiences. You can pm me at the 44’s, or Jenn has my e-mail address. I mean this seriously–I’m not being facetious or anything like that. Once Jenn cools down, she’s welcome to meet some really great Asian American men and women who don’t embody any of the traits that the Kingstonians assign to us. Actually, great Asian Americans are all around us and aren’t hard to find; it’s all about stepping outside and meeting them.
Scowlie:
I think I once wrongly made fun of someone for having an advanced degree in Asian American pop culture, and that guy rightly called me out on it.
Seriously, you need a library sciences degree just to keep track of all these different variations on the same exact theme which they rehash over and over again.
jaehwan
12:06 am | Mar 31, 2008One thought that just crossed my mind when I re-read what I wrote in post #23 above. I don’t think that all Asian American feminists are maliciously racist against Asian American men. Some are not, but just about all of us have inherited biases from our education and the culture we inhabit, and I do think that Asian American feminism has its biases. What I’m saying is that we need to challenge not just other people, but ourselves as well. Racism, in this sense, is not a bad, immutable character trait, it’s just something that we all (including myself) have to work on.
Ike
12:53 pm | Mar 31, 2008It must have been “Falling for Grace” that was screened for the reaction to AF/WM, because I don’t recall any AF/WM relationships in “Saving Face”. Like Nightshade said, “Saving Face” was a movie about two AA lesbians.
CJF
8:25 pm | Mar 31, 2008Yeah, Saving Face was a lesbo movie, and it was awesome.
There was an AM/AF relationship as well in it. The girl’s mom ended up having a baby with some Asian guy.
MelaninManson
9:31 pm | Mar 31, 2008Well said, BTB! You have probably said something similar many times, but it’s good to have people hear an Asian American female’s perspective on this issue once again! I actually think it would be great to have them hear it over and over and over. And maybe the “fuck MelaninManson” will get MelaninMason thinking. MelaninManson, I mean no offense, but I hope you’re listening with open ears–you need a kick in the pants from a real Asian American who actually interacts with other Asian Americans. BTB is a real Asian American woman, not some fictional figure in an Amy Tan novel.
Or maybe “fuck MelaninManson” is just rude.
Jaehwan, I interact with “a real Asian American who actually interacts with other Asian Americans” each and every day. Your inference to the contrary troubles me, because it takes this discussion down the unneeded road of proving authenticity, where an Asian woman who agrees with your perspectives is touted as “real”, and an Asian woman who does not agree with your perspectives has something to prove.
Jaehwan, are you some omnipresent Asian male voyeur who watches every scene in people’s lives? Perhaps you consider yourself reasonably knowledgeable about Jenn’s life to pass judgment on her authenticity, and her interactions with other Asian Americans. If so, you are mistaken.
Look, I appreciate your reaching out, and I’m sure Jenn and I would love to take you up on that invitation if we’re ever in that area. But let’s be clear about something — Jenn needs no education on what it means to be Asian American, and I need no education that involves exposing me to “real people”. I mean this seriously.
We have these debates because Jenn believes quite strongly in Asian American feminism, and you do not Jaehwan. As always the debates are interesting, and I get insulted for talking about Asian American issues. Film at eleven.
AS AN ASIAN AMERICAN WOMAN, I’m offended by MelaninManson’s attempt to speak for what he believes Asian American feminism stands for and the injustices he thinks Asian American men have committed against Asian American women. These AA men are my family and my lovers. What the hell does he know about it? - Blockthebox
BTB, I’m not interested in your offense. If you disagree with something I’ve written, tell me where I’m faulty. If I’m wrong, prove it. If the Asian American community does not have concerns about domestic violence, then say so, and I’ll retract. I know that the African American community fights a losing struggle with domestic violence. Because of that sad trend, and other factors, I believe that minority communities should spend more time teaching men respect not only for women but also for culturally specific female empowerment — basically, third-wave feminism.
I disagreed with Jaehwan’s post here because I don’t think any of us — by ‘us’ I refer to people of color in general — are well served by any attempts to debunk or denigrate minority feminisms.
I’m not saying that Asian male sexism exists in a vacuum; I think all minority men exist in a world where their cultural, economic, and political spheres encourage sexism against women, usually the women with whom they interact most. And as galling as it might be BTB, I’m not excluding Asian men from this perception.
Jenn’s blog has been filled with commenters from all over who deride every feminist statement she makes as counterproductive to the Asian American community. I don’t just mean the obvious trolls — after I watched her Falling for Grace discussion devolve into yet another insipid IR debate when the conversation originally focused around the merits of supporting independent minority media, I realized that for some men within her community, Jenn’s feminism makes her the enemy. Period.
BTB, maybe you’d like to share your personal experiences with promoting feminism in your community. As an Asian American woman, of course.
nightshade
11:04 pm | Mar 31, 2008^That was a lot to write just to spout condescending bullshit. Thanks a whole fucking lot for telling Asian women what it’s really like to be a feminist.
I feel so educated and empowered now–I’m going to spend all tomorrow calling my father and brother out on being sexist assholes, then I’m going to find my white knight and he’ll take me away from it all. Then finally, I’ll be able to promote feminism in my very own community, as an Asian American woman.
jaehwan
11:48 pm | Mar 31, 2008Haha…I’m busting a gut laughing! Hahaha…gotta love the 44’s! Thanks, nightshade!
So MelaninManson,
You’re taking some heat on this board, and though you may not see it, it’s perfectly justified. To see why it’s justified, let’s break this down:
I wrote:
Then I wrote (emphasis added):
BTB added:
You then answered my question and BTB’s concerns by saying:
So basically, you proved everyone’s point: you have NO interactions with real Asian American men or the Asian American community, and yet you feel comfortable saying all types of stereotypical nonsense based on knowledge that doesn’t come from real life interactions with Asian American people. All your information comes from one single real Asian American person who is feeding you your information through one single perspective. You are taking this one single person’s perspective and applying it to a whole group of people that you have no personal interactions with. You most certainly don’t have to prove Jenn’s authenticity–she can do that herself if she so chooses–but the burden of proving your knowledge about Asian American people and how we interact certainly ought to extend beyond the “Jenn-told-me-that’s-the-case-so-it-must-be-true” proof.
No offense, MelaninManson, but we’re not African American. What you say about African Americans may be totally true–but it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a problem with us. Personally I’d say that violence does exist in this community, but to say that it’s a significant problem based on our culture is totally incorrect–or at least I haven’t seen such evidence, especially not with the second generation or older. Jenn actually quoted a researcher on her blog and tried to extrapolate some sort of cultural propensity towards violence with the Asian community, and the researcher actually wrote her back and told her she was wrong. Props to Jenn for correcting the mistake, but we should always be innocent until proven guilty.
That offer in Portland still stands. But until then, why don’t you just preface every statement about Asian Americans by saying “Jenn feels that..?” It would be a lot more accurate. We’re all educated people here, and I think it’s only fair to acknowledge that you personally can’t make a valid assumption about a race/culture of people unless you actually interact with them.
It’s “insipid” because you don’t deal with Asian male stereotypes. Nor does it sound like you have any Asian male friends. So while it may be “insipid” to you, it’s not “insipid” to people who actually have to deal with Asian American issues.
Oh, and don’t apply this to just Asian men either. Since it affects our interactions, it’s an issue for both men and women in our community who interact with one another.
Read this.
And there’s a difference between Jenn being the enemy and feminism being the enemy. I think ALL of the non-trolls treated Jenn with respect; they just didn’t like having their real life issues dismissed. If she were the enemy, these non-trolls would’ve tried to take her down. Instead, they tried to engage her in debate. We need to debate stuff, otherwise how else do we expect to fix problems?
blockthebox
11:49 pm | Mar 31, 2008Yup, same self-righteous, condescending and unnecessarily wordy bullshit telling us how it is and how it should be.
Jaehwan, you’ve been nothing but super nice and accomodating to this MelaninManson character, but I think at this point it’s going to be a conversation between just the two of you.
jaehwan
11:58 pm | Mar 31, 2008Haha…thanks, BTB, for your patience and support. I don’t blame you for getting exasperated. But I’m probably the only Asian person outside of his girlfriend who talks to Melanin, so I feel like I’ve got a duty to point out how little he really knows about us. I’ve got hope that someday they’ll come around! Hopefully they’ll prove me right!!!
Xian
12:05 am | Apr 01, 2008You have already been called on this, but I just wanted to emphasize how off this is.
We live in a hardcore sexist society. Obviously communities of color are not immune to that. Obviously exactly how that misogyny manifests itself in those communities is going to vary. In most cases, as communities have less to gain from toeing the dominant standard for how that sexism “ought” to be expressed, they will exhibit sexism that is more noticable, but certainly no more potent.
To use that perspective difference to claim that the minority communities have their own independent, and worse problems with sexism is straight enabling of institutional racism.
Personally, I don’t care whether you have any yellow friends. I just don’t like aversive racism. Especially when it enables mainstream sexism.
Out of respect to Jenn, I’m not going to make this personal, but I do think it’s important to work out gender-racial issues for the long-term health of an IR. I say that from personal experience in both successful and unsuccessful long-term IRs. Deep resentment toward the opposite gender of your partner’s ethnicity is something that can and will fester.
nightshade
1:23 am | Apr 01, 2008The more I think about what MM wrote, the angrier I get.
In North America, we live in a racist patriarchy. Let’s be real about this. It’s true.
As Asian women, in this racist patriarchy, OUR POWER IS TIED TO ASIAN MEN. Not because Asian men are looking to be oppressors, but BECAUSE THE WHITE POWERS THAT BE HAVE SET UP THIS SYSTEM.
If other people insult Asian men, and call them sexist, that means THEY ARE SHITTING ON ASIAN WOMEN AT THE SAME TIME. Any time an Asian man is undermined in a racist fashion, it affects the entire community. Why do white men get a free fucking pass, but my Asian brothers have to constantly put up with badly written condescending bullshit?
Fuck that noise. MM, you can keep your oppressive, racist version of “feminism.” I’ll keep mine.
MelaninManson
2:00 am | Apr 01, 2008So basically, you proved everyone’s point: you have NO interactions with real Asian American men or the Asian American community, and yet you feel comfortable saying all types of stereotypical nonsense based on knowledge that doesn’t come from real life interactions with Asian American people. All your information comes from one single real Asian American person who is feeding you your information through one single perspective. You are taking this one single person’s perspective and applying it to a whole group of people that you have no personal interactions with. You most certainly don’t have to prove Jenn’s authenticity–she can do that herself if she so chooses–but the burden of proving your knowledge about Asian American people and how we interact certainly ought to extend beyond the “Jenn-told-me-that’s-the-case-so-it-must-be-true” proof. - Jaehwan
That’s completely baseless.
I never said I had no interactions with Asian Americans. I simply opposed your insinuation that Jenn’s Asian American authenticity wasn’t a given. I found that point demeaning, for the reasons I mentioned.
I didn’t provide you a detailed list of every Asian American person I know and speak to because:
a) That’s just weird.
b) It’s none of your business.
c) It’s a foolish exercise designed to move away from a real discussion on Asian American feminism and Asian male sexism into personal BS designed to discredit my points.
Look, I’m not trying to play foolish games. If people find my writing here problematic, fine. I don’t have to contribute here.
To use that perspective difference to claim that the minority communities have their own independent, and worse problems with sexism is straight enabling of institutional racism. - Xian
I don’t follow this logic, nor do I agree that my commentary promotes a belief that any minority community has a worse problem with sexism than mainstream American society. I don’t believe that and I never asserted that.
I was trying to make the point that the denial of minority feminisms by minority men can overlook the pervasive and real sexism in minority communities. Jaehwan’s entire post tries to discredit Asian American feminism as anti-Asian male. I disagree. Further, I made the point that Asian male sexism exists. Just that it exists; not that it’s worse or better than any other brand.
Now, out of respect for you, I won’t comment on your relationship advice.
Xian
8:37 am | Apr 01, 2008Further, I made the point that Asian male sexism exists. Just that it exists; not that it’s worse or better than any other brand.
That’s all you were saying? Well, of course that’s true. Now why were you telling us who have already acknowledged that issue this and then attacked Asian American males?
Either you were talking to some nebulous grouping or your were talking to someone specific when you basically told us that people who opposed you were doing it because they didn’t want women to make their own decisions.
That’s not pro-feminist. That’s just self-absorbed. It’s true on a societal level in a way that explains general anti-feminist/misogynist movements. But it’s not a weapon for people with narrow understandings of feminism to use inappropriately to win internet arguments.
Without questioning your right to be here, I’d just like a clarification. Why are you here?
I’ll assume it’s nothing too petty. So what are you trying to do? Is it to spread feminist ideology?
If so, you are not doing a good job. As you could see if you read anything beyond this thread, we are debating and hashing out feminist theory without your input.
Your insulting, condescending approach has only derailed our discussions and made them about you.
Think about that for a minute and ask yourself if you have been a friend or foe of feminism on this particular website.
MelaninManson
11:22 am | Apr 01, 2008Sure, Xian. You guys are doing a fine job of ‘debating and hashing out feminist theory’ — it’s so effective that when Jaehwan writes a post that condemns Asian American feminism as an anti-Asian male ideology, he gains accolades for that stance from almost everyone.
Take another look at this thread, Xian. Comments 13 and 14 argue basically the same point — that one can’t argue that Asian American feminism revolves around the positions of two authors alone.
Now, since you’re so attuned to healthy discussions of feminism here Xian, I would have expected you to notice the base intellectual dishonesty of Jaehwan’s piece and gently call that out here. But you didn’t, if comment #7 is any indication. No, you did not oppose Jaehwan’s claims that Asian American feminism was nothing more that Kingston and Tan’s anti-Asian male doctrine. Maybe that passes for ‘debating and hashing out feminist theory’ on this site.
Further, I never attacked Asian American males. I don’t think that all Asian males are sexist. I don’t think that most Asian males are sexist. I’ve gone to great pains to only say that some Asian males are sexist, because Asian male sexism exists. No better or worse than anyone else’s sexism, but it exists - a position you agree with Xian.
Now if the disconnect here means that you can notice Asian male sexism and talk about it openly because you are Asian and that I can’t notice Asian male sexism and talk about it because I’m Black, then that’s acceptable. I don’t make the rules here. Just post an honest “Don’t talk about Asian American issues here unless you can prove your ancestry” rule on the homepage so people won’t make that mistake again.
Xian, since Jaehwan linked my blog post in this blog, I thought I could come to this thread and defend my position. If I was mistaken, I apologize.
Either you were talking to some nebulous grouping or your were talking to someone specific when you basically told us that people who opposed you were doing it because they didn’t want women to make their own decisions. - Xian
I never said that. It’s not ‘people who opposed me’; I’m not an Asian American feminist. Comment #17 has my perspective on this. It’s not a ‘nebulous grouping’ - it’s people who oppose Asian American feminism, and/ or those who pretend that Kingston and Tan’s writing represents all that Asian American feminism has to offer. So, really, I was talking to Jaehwan.
Jaehwan asked where I gained my information. Obviously I’ve observed Reappropriate.com for some time, but I’ve had some personal experience with this phenomena as well. Repeatedly, Asian men flock to Jenn’s site to attack her feminism, mostly because it doesn’t focus on Asian male issues enough for them. (I’m talking about non-trolls here.) No one’s bringing up Kingston and Tan, but people do raise anti-Asian male stereotypes all the time — even when the focus is domestic violence or independent Asian American film.
I watch a dynamic where Jenn continually tries to use her blogging to support her community, only to have members of her community attack and dismiss her and her opinions because they can’t stand her feminist focus and her personal life. Hell, I wish it was all about Kingston and Tan.
Still, what bothers me most about Jaehwan’s perspective is that it reflects many African American denials of sexism within the Black community from some Black men. But again - had I known it was impolite for a non-Asian to discuss Asian American issues here, then no one would have been bothered.
jaehwan
12:47 pm | Apr 01, 2008Melanin,
We weren’t even talking about Jenn. We were talking about you. Where do you get your information? That was the one question I asked in post #19. I was asking it because you said that the “problem” Asian Americans face is sexism. I asked it three times. You answered by saying that you know Jenn, who has interactions with Asian Americans, which seems to me to be a rather limited source, since it’s just one person.
So for the fourth time, where do you get your information?
You say it’s none of my business, but as nightshade and btb point out, if you’re painting Asian men with a racial stereotypical characterization of sexism, the burden of proof is on you. If I were to say that black men are (pick your stereotype), you’d probably want some evidence from me. I’m just asking the same.
Hey, I’m still waiting for detractors like you to point out where I’m wrong (outside of Helen Zia). I’ve mentioned many times, both here and on reappropriate, that I’m willing to admit that I’m wrong if you can provide evidence to the contrary. Asian American feminism always seems to start with Kingston and continue with Tan. If I’m wrong, point it out. Show me what the new Asian American feminists are working on these days, outside of slandering the S$%t out of Asian men. We’re on post #37, and you still haven’t presented any evidence to the contrary.
If you re-read post #17, you’ll see how it seems to conflict with everything in your quote directly above, and it’s understandable that virtually EVERYONE else, including Xian, nightshade, BTB, and I were not understanding you. As xian pointed out, it’s strange, given that your position above is exactly the same as everyone else’s position. So now that we acknowledge agreement: Since Asian men are no better or worse than anyone else, why don’t we stop trying to paint Asian men with that brush. Let’s stop talking specifically about Asian male sexism, since you agree that it’s no better or worse than anyone else’s sexism in the general community. Since we haven’t proven any sexism that is specifically Asian in nature, maybe we can agree that we don’t need an Asian American feminism. Feminism, maybe. Asian American feminism? No, not unless there is a race-specific need, and you’ve now agreed that there isn’t one.
So do we agree on this?
Now we just have to get you to see the racism behind a lot of the Asian American feminism out there.
I have not seen or heard any “non-troll” say anything about her personal life. Have you? Non-trolls on her site speak out because she promotes an Asian American feminism that can be construed as being against Asian men, including promoting movies that use a tired, colonialist paradigm of WM/AF and accuse Asian men of “sexism” for voicing our concerns about such themes. Since these themes affect us, I would think that she would want more debate, rather than for us to just remain silent.
Isn’t change what she says she wants? It seems strange to do the exact same thing as the Kingstonians and to expect different results from the status quo.
Xian
5:03 pm | Apr 01, 2008Now, since you’re so attuned to healthy discussions of feminism here Xian, I would have expected you to notice the base intellectual dishonesty of Jaehwan’s piece and gently call that out here. But you didn’t, if comment #7 is any indication. No, you did not oppose Jaehwan’s claims that Asian American feminism was nothing more that Kingston and Tan’s anti-Asian male doctrine. Maybe that passes for ‘debating and hashing out feminist theory’ on this site.
You mean like responding to that post with another front page post that discusses the fact that feminism is a cornerstone of any social justice thinking or movement and that appropriation of it by misguided people like Tan or Kingston could never soil the righteousness of the central idea.
You are totally right. Somebody should right an article like that.
Of course, if someone were to spend a lot of time doing so, someone might use the same “I don’t see anyone expect Tan so they must not exist” logic that they are complaining about in the first place.
So I ask again. And let me clarify because even though I stated it explicitly the first time, you didn’t seem to understand. Why are you here?
Not “Why do you have a right to be here?” or “What do you think of here?” Why are you here?
If you don’t know why you are doing something, it’s horribly unlikely that you will succeed at doing it. I think you have some positive motive toward being here, and I would be happy to help you if you would articulate it, since you seem to be doing a horrible job on your own.
Xian
5:22 pm | Apr 01, 2008Since we haven’t proven any sexism that is specifically Asian in nature, maybe we can agree that we don’t need an Asian American feminism. Feminism, maybe. Asian American feminism? No, not unless there is a race-specific need, and you’ve now agreed that there isn’t one.
C’mon Jae, that’s like saying because mainstream racism is pervasive across all minority communities, there’s no need for ethnicity based organizations. That might be true in the long-run, but it’s certainly not now, right.
I think you are right in this thread–he’s done a terrible job arguing his point. But I don’t agree that there’s no place for Asian American feminism and if it seems like AA feminism starts and end with Kingston-ish folks, that’s just because you are buying into a fake feminism defined by white America.
That’s not to say that our friend here or Jenn or myself or Catty or anyone here is defining a perfect feminism. What my point is is Boots from the Coup’s point on social justice movement–”Ain’t no woman gonna fight for revolution just so another pimp can use them.”
Poorly applied feminism does not nullify the need for feminism just as Al Sharpton doesn’t mean that we have no right to fight for ethnic equality.
Furthermore, given what mainstream predominantly white movements look like, I’m surprised that you would call for a color blind feminism–we’ve already seen what color blind feminism looks like. It’s rich white women getting rights.
As for who are good Asian American feminists, I named some in my other post. Are they straight feminist? No. Is there anyone who can be a great social justice organizer without integrating? I doubt it.
nightshade
9:27 pm | Apr 01, 2008Why do academic bitches have to be such passive aggressive little sucks? My teenage cousins have more common sense and logic than MM.
No one said that you couldn’t express an opinion, crybaby. But when you’re acting like a condescending little bitch, and being so fucking oppressive about defining feminism ON YOUR TERMS to actual Asian American women, we’re going to call you out on it.
Stop pulling the, “Oh, you all R BUNCH OF AZN NAZIS” bullshit. We hear it all the time from douchebags. I didn’t expect to hear it from you.
Just because I don’t think that feminism is about the right to fuck non-Asian men doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in improving the conditions for women living in poverty, or encouraging young women in my community to pursue their dreams, rights, and freedoms.
I’m so sick of stupid fake feminists and their misguided allies who think that sex is at the forefront of feminism–WTF. IT’S NOT THE FUCKING POINT. This is why Kingston and Tan are shitlisted–they don’t get the point.
The point is that poverty and institutional racism and sexism creates shitty conditions and those of us who have privilege should be trying to build our communities, not point fingers and slag an entire group of people.
I think this is so much more important than dating and IR. (I only bring this shit up because you dragged it into the argument, MM.) I can read Sophie Kinsella or Candace Bushell if I want a helping of the relationship retardation and OMG SEX IS SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE I’M A HOT WOMAN IN CONTROL OF MY BODY that passes for writing.
Jaehwan didn’t say FEMINISM SUX, OMG I HATE ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN. He wrote that he have to address some fundamental issues specific to our community and work together to build a sound foundation, where there can be a healthy form of feminism.
jaehwan
11:56 pm | Apr 01, 2008Xian, can you keep a secret? There’s this article that I found here that makes the exact same point that you make above. It’s written by this guy named “xian,” which coincidentally is also your username. Imagine that, two people with the same exact username wanting to talk about the exact same position on the exact same issue of Asian American feminism on the exact same 44’s site.
I used to watch the Twilight Zone, but this is just plain freaky!
I’ll try to explain better in my next blog post or two, but I’m totally for gender based ethnic groups. That is, I think if they feel it necessary, it’s a good thing for Asian American women to form their own groups and to fight for what they need, free from male intervention or control. So I think we agree that there is a need for Asian American female-based activism.
My question is whether or not these groups are necessarily “Asian American feminist,” with the keyword being “feminist.” When I responded in the comment section in the Social Justice article above (written by the other Xian, I said that I disagreed with a few of the paragraphs. Here’s why: Concepts like “equality” and “empathy” have always existed. They were rallying cries at certain points throughout history, but they’ve always been there. “Feminism,” on the other hand, really came about during the 60’s. They call it “second wave,” but if I’m not mistaken, it really was the first wave which identified its precursor wave as “first wave” since the term wasn’t used prior to the 60’s (or at least I don’t think it was.). It was absolutely necessary then, and feminists like Steinem and Friedan changed the world. But is that kind of feminism still relevant today?
Catty made a very good argument (”I’m Asian American and a feminist and therefore an Asian American feminist”), and I personally am fine with people calling themselves Asian American feminists, as long as they’re aware of possible divisiveness. I do think that if Asian American feminists are starting a new movement though, they need to identify it as such. It all goes back to winning and being as clear as possible with what we want.
Keep in mind that empowered Asian woman and Asian American feminist are not necessarily the same thing. Maogirl, for example, is very highly empowered, but she explicitly does not identify with feminism. I have a friend who is a high powered attorney, who owns her own business, and who does tons of work to encourage minority women in business, but she too doesn’t consider herself an Asian American feminist because she doesn’t see herself as having any philosophical similarities with the current movement.
Look at the current Asian American feminists right now. They are dogging people like you and me as we speak. See here . I mean, this is absolutely insane.
One commentator writes:
The Kingstonian dream is not our dream. We say this over and over again, but no one listens.
You and I both know that nothing we said was out of line on Jenn’s blog; we were just asking for clarification and understanding. This whole thing started because somehow someone said that the 44’s was sexist. And I understand that emotions get involved, but this is exactly the legacy of how “Asian American feminism” has been practiced–ready, aim at the Asian guys, fire. It’s gotta stop.
So let me just clarify my position–I don’t believe that Asian American feminism, as it is practiced, is a good thing. But if it really is a concept with a core, fundamental meaning, then maybe it can be reinvented today. If it is, I truly believe that that meaning must be stated explicitly in order to rally the troops and win. Otherwise, it’ll face the same frustrations that exasperated Jenn.
By the way, I think you and Jenn both expressed this, but let me get my turn: I’m also upset that this whole thing blew up the way it did. It’s frustrating to speak and never be heard.
It was the same kind of feminism that I studied in my Asian American Studies classes, and it’s pretty strong even among the ethnic studies professors today. It’s possible that it is being defined by white America through the educational system–that was one of Said’s theories.
BTW, I do like the feminists you mention, but they’re mostly underground. If they want to step it up and make it big, positions on history and their style of analysis will have to be explicit. (I’ll try to explain this in my next blog post…)
Ike
10:10 am | Apr 02, 2008Just as racism is better dealt with by focusing on institutional racism rather than individual people who are racism, perhaps we should step back from comparing people’s sexism and look at the broader scope of a sexist system.
Asian Americans use the same institutions as the rest of America, and the dominant group in these institutions is white men. To focus on blaming Asian American men for the sexism that faces Asian American women detracts from focusing on the larger underlying issue.
Agreed. Dividing a minority community into factions that attack each other personally before focusing on the flawed American system is a classic divide-and-conquer strategy. Hm…
I’m upset, but not surprised. The (banned) member who was “maverick” here was commenting prolifically on the blog.
jaehwan
12:05 am | Apr 03, 2008Jenn banned maverick? Ike, do you know maverick outside of this site? Which one was he? Just curious. It was a shame he went down on the 44’s the way he did.
Check out my Part II on this subject.
SamuraiJack
3:03 am | Apr 03, 2008Excuse me for not reading the past 43 posts in it’s entirety, but what exactly is “Asian American Feminism”?
Is it some sort of movement to eliminate sexism between Asian American males and females? Or just sexism against Asian American females? Or sexism against all females in general?
The way I see it, the term “Asian American Feminism” sounds a lot like trying to eliminate some aspect of sexism between Asian American men and women, that doesn’t exist in any other culture in America. Is this correct?
Xian
7:28 am | Apr 03, 2008That’s a lot of the discussion, SJ. Words are fluid, so they can define whatever a community decides. For example, Webster’s refers to “racism” as only intentional discrimination which–as we all know–is a completely worthless definition to anyone except those in the ethnic majority who are only concerned about who to blame, not fixing the problem.
If you define “Asian American feminisms” as what you said, our guest thinks it’s needed as you explain. Everyone else here agrees that defining it that way simply attempts to single out Asian American misogyny in a racist way.
However, there’s a schism between those of us who seek to define Asian American feminism as “Asian Americans addressing gender inequities through the Asian American community” (without blaming our community, or especially exclusively males for those inequities) and those who accept the above definition and they say it’s worthless and divisive.
jaehwan
7:12 pm | Apr 03, 2008Xian,
I actually think we’re much on the same page right now, with the only difference being the terminology that we use. To a certain degree, as you already know, I myself am what you would call a “feminist” since I support (and actively work for) equal rights and recognition for women. So I think we both agree that something needs to be done in order to empower Asian American women. I think the next step is for us to either:
a) Talk about how that might be done, and of course encourage women to participate in the discussion
or
b) Start taking small steps to make sure that a real “Asian American feminist” (or whatever we would call it) movement starts.
Ike
11:04 am | Apr 04, 2008