44’s vs. Reappropriate on Fallout Central
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Check out the latest edition of the Fallout Central podcast where I debate Jenn Fang from reappropriate.com on the issue of whether or not the promotion of the movie “Falling For Grace” hurts, helps, or does nothing for Asian American men. Our debate takes place approximately between 47:54 and 1:05:10 on the audio clip.
For those who want the link to the Tierney blog I quoted, it is here.
Another article, special for all you 44’s fans, is here.? (and thanks to 44’s member Vahz who posted this one.) It says,
The one major exception to the finding that women wanted to meet men of their own race was Asian women, a vast majority of whom stated that they strongly preferred meeting non-Asian men.
The primary explanation offered by most Asian women was that they wanted to be matched with tall men, and they insisted that practically all of the Asian men they knew were short. But when I would ask if they would be willing to meet an Asian man if he were tall, most would simply shake their head and say they would rather not.
I don’t want to dwell too much on it because, as I mentioned in the podcast, the IR debate gets divisive if you mention it too much, but I did want to offer at least a few pieces of evidence to counter the unexamined numbers of Dr. C.N. Le. I’m sure Dr. Le is a great guy, but his numbers are an outlier, and unless someone with a statistics background can examine those really dubious numbers that he has presented, I’m going to stick with the statistics from just about everyone else out there.
So here’s the story behind the story: Samurai Jack started the situation with his post here,? and Jenn took it to the next level here (see the 236 and counting comments on Jenn’s Haloscan). After seeing the hordes of angry Asian men on her blog, including me and fellow 44 Xian (the 44’s family!), she and Will came up with the idea of having the debate. As Will explains in his comments after the debate, he sent us the format, and we agreed.
I don’t know if we reached a resolution, and I don’t know if we’ll ever reach a resolution, but it was an awesome experience just getting the issues out there. The internet is great, but there is no substitute for the clashing of voices and ideas in real time. We need to hear more issues, and we need to get them out in the open. Like the great Frank Chin, we need to dare to share what is on our minds. We need to use our minds.
I’d like to thank Jenn for inviting me to Fallout Central where she is a regular. Though we disagree on many issues, her open-mindedness and ability to hear the other side make her a true leader in the Asian American community. I’m very impressed by the way she has crossed boundaries to get a diversity of opinion on all subjects, both on her blog and in her activism. Thanks to fellow 44 Kwak (it feels like family and I’m about to cry…) for introducing me to the FC guys. Thanks to William of Fallout Central for hosting what was a lively debate.
It’s great that the Asian American blogosphere can work together even though our opinions differ so much. I look forward to continuing in the spirit of cooperation.
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blockthebox
1:43 am | Mar 18, 2008A few things: My approach to the debate is slightly different. IR, besides being a topic that I’m so sick of, isn’t the bigger issue. Really, it’s the depiction of Asians, and Asian men in particular, in media. This movie appears to further perpetuate a certain social phenomenon of which we’re all aware — the AF/WM pairing. This pairing in turn further perpetuates certain stereotypes of both Asian women and men — that all AFs are into white dudes because all AMs are emasculated misogynists.
If you think about it this way, it’s not JUST about IR. It becomes an issue of how all Asians are unfairly portrayed.
Also, I’m a little tired of shoulderpad feminism being interjected into debates like this when it has nothing to do with it. It becomes divisive to any kind of AA cause. So we should watch Falling From Grace to support AA movies, but Better Luck Tomorrow we shouldn’t support because some women found it offensive even though the argument could be made that both movies are equally offensive to women?
By the way, great job, jaehwan!
kwak76
5:04 pm | Mar 18, 2008Good job Jaehwan. The guys at FOC loved it and want more future debates on other topics with Jenn.
BTB,
I hear what you saying. At first when “Falling for Grace”, was in writing. There was two scripts. The first scripts was for AM/AF and did not get any money even though this was an independent film. The second script was AF/WM and all of sudden got money.
jaehwan
1:07 am | Mar 19, 2008Thanks, Kwak and BTB! It was loads of fun, and I hope to do it again!
Kwak,
Where did you hear the story about them switching scripts? We’ve been debating the movie for a while now, but I’ve not heard anything about that. I know some of Georgia Lee’s Red Doors people were making excuses about not having an Asian male actor, but I was unaware of any such excuses from Fay Lee.
BTB,
Thanks for your input.
I actually agree 100% with your slightly different approach–I think it’s also about portrayals. But as a guy debating with a woman, it’s hard for me to say it outright with respect to the female side. Jenn is totally cool and fair, but if I had said that the pairing perpetuates the stereotype that “all AF’s are into white dudes because all AMs are emasculated misogynists” to a major Kingstonian, I would’ve been destroyed by a deluge of postmodern nonsense. They would’ve twisted it around into making me look as if I were trying to control their sexuality. They would’ve said, “Who are you to dictate who I’m with?”
And if I brought in the feminist argument, a Kingstonian propagandist would’ve accused me of trying to create a feminism that only benefits men. I would’ve spent half the 18 minute debate dodging blows as I cowered in the corner. Jenn is not like this, but I think it makes sense to always be prepared to face someone who really hates Asian men–and there are tons of those out there.
I don’t know; do you think I’m being paranoid? Maybe I am. I’ve just had so many conversations of that kind, and even more than the question of getting tarred and smeared, the sheer racial arrogance of Kingstonians just turns my stomach with its stupidity and irony. So I try to be a little pre-emptive in making sure my bases are covered.
jaehwan
11:47 am | Mar 19, 2008One last thing…I think that the comparison between FFG and BLT is a red herring. It’s taking two totally unrelated things and trying to draw a comparison. Most Asian women don’t see BLT’s supposed gender inequalities at the same level that the vast majority of Asian men see FFG’s gender inequalities. It’s like one person says, “I’m suffering from X,” and someone else says, “C’mon, we ALL suffer.” It’s a way of mitigating the very real complaints of the first person.
blockthebox
10:02 pm | Mar 19, 2008Re: How to frame the debate. Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I don’t know if you’ll ever be able to sway a Kingstonian if her belief system is based on WHITE feminism. This is why I always cite Julia Oh, “Sister Can You Lend Me an Ear?” http://www.aamovement.net/viewpoints/2000-03%20archive/sistersear1.html when this kind of stuff comes up.
kwak76
10:53 pm | Mar 19, 2008Jaehwan,
When this movie was in the work (this is what Will told me) they did have an script for AM/AF casting but got no money or support. I don’t know the details but got this from Will. So they changed it to WM/AF. Again I’m not 100%.
When it comes to debates like this you do have to become careful. Jenn seems to be fair in her debate which surprises me because some of the posters here thinks Jenn has this anti-Asian male position. Which I don’t 100% agree.
I don’t agree with everything she says and on this issue but she seems fair and open to debates.
jaehwan
12:43 am | Mar 20, 2008BTB:
I don’t think I’ll ever be able to sway a Kingstonian because they hate me by default. It’s like, “You’re male. You practice footbinding!” And then that’s it. That’s why I think it’s good to get more voices out there like yours and like Julia Oh’s. We really need balance in the mainstream discussion.
Kwak,
Jenn’s totally pro-AM. I disagree with a lot of her methods of being pro-AM, but I think her heart is in the right place. I actually hope she’ll someday come around to see it our way.
Incidentally, she runs runs a “feminist” blog, but her Haloscan crew is like 90% Asian male, some of whom are really angry. Go figure.