So what do your parents think about the White Guy?
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Props to “uRB4N” on his post:
http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?p=36815#post36815
Russell Peters was doing a comedy show here last week and he noticed an Asian woman and man in the front row. If you’ve ever been to a comedy show, you know better than to sit in the front. Anyway, he asked this Asian guy his name and he made the usual racial joke that his real name must sound like a kungfu move. He asked them if they were together. He said no and that they were just coworkers. He asks him if he’s single and he responds yes. He turns to the Asian woman and asks if she’s single. She responds no.
Without hesitation, he then asks how her parents feel about her dating a white guy. The whole audience was just laughing their asses off. She didn’t do anything except look down. He did manage to stick up for Asian guys though. He said that at least he knows why Indian women might flee Indian men because of arranged marriages but he also joked about body odor and being boring engineers but he actually said that there was no real reason for Asian men to get the shaft.
I was laughing like crazy when I read Russell Peter’s joke. It’s soo true, and it’s refreshing to see someone of non-Asian (or maybe non-East Asian) descent acknowledge our experiences. Especially in a place like NYC, an Asian woman dating or marrying anything other than a white guy is an anomaly. According to John Tierney in his New York Times blog page, an Asian man on average needs to make $24,000 more money than a white man in order to be viewed as equally attractive to Asian women. How is the average Asian American male expected to compete with such a strong race preference? ($24k is half the average income in the U.S. for non-Hispanic Whites.) Dialectic and xian have both blogged about this issue, and I agree with them on their important commonality; it’s an issue that cannot be ignored given the significance of the trend in the Asian American community. I understand that the interracial dating issue comes up often in the black community, but in the Asian American community, I would argue that it probably is the most significant issue.
I think it’s great that Russell Peters is blowing the silence on the issues that affect Asian American men. Oftentimes, society with its emphasis on masculinity intimidates us into remaining silent. It’s mostly the Kingstonian feminists who are responsible for this. Go to any university with a sizable Asian population, and you can hear them speaking.
“Asian women are making choices. After years of sexism and Asian chauvinism, what did you expect?”
“Oh, if you have trouble with women, maybe it’s because of you personally!”
“Don’t question my white boyfriend; you don’t own our sexuality!”
“Well, Asian American men just have to learn to step up! I don’t see white guys having a problem stepping up.”
“Racism? I’m race-blind. And so is my white boyfriend!”
It’s time for us to take control over our culture by talking about issues that really affect us. Model minority? Yes, that affects us somewhat. Job discrimination? That too. Racial violence? Yes. But nothing affects Asian Americans quite like the Eurocentric racial preference in dating. It affects us through alienation and misunderstanding. It causes a societal loss of spirit, a zeitgeist of hopelessness that permeates everything that we do. Between Asian men and women, it has caused countless misunderstandings and mischaracterizations, even in interactions that are not sexual in nature.
Those Amy Tan types are correct–it’s a personal preference, and no one should dictate what race a person should or shouldn’t marry. I don’t own their sexuality, and if a person just loves the White race, it’s not up to me or anyone else to condemn that preference. But their right to express a racial preference shouldn’t affect my right to question why that preference exists in such large numbers according to so predictable a trend, nor should it affect my right to discuss the way in which their racial preference affects me or millions of Asian men around the world.
The time for silence is over. We need dialogue.
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Senkeh
9:31 pm | Feb 13, 2008Did anyone watch Moment of Truth last week? There was a white guy getting grilled, and one of the people he’d brought with him was his Japanese girlfriend. One of the questions he was asked was, “Do you ever make racial remarks about your girlfriend’s family?” He and his buddies laughed really hard before he answered, “Yes.” The answer was true, of course.
To think that girl’s family had to see that shit on national television. I wonder. The moment I saw it, all I could think was, “How many times did her family probably tell her that boy wasn’t worth shit?”
uRB4N
10:06 pm | Feb 13, 2008I wouldn’t say that Russell Peters was standing up for anyone. That was an error on my part. I think he was just trying to make a joke out of it and spotted an opportunity.
My main gripe is that aura of anger and scrutiny is placed solely on Asian American men as if we’ve been responsible for everything that happened in the past (even though white men have done worse) and are using it to justify their actions towards Asian men. It’s like saying that all white people are responsible for racism just because previous white generations have enslaved blacks in the past.
Additionally, no one likes their concerns dismissed arbitrarily. I’m sure blacks don’t like their arguments of racism dismissed as “angry black man” syndrome. This is why I think Asian men have stayed quiet for such a long time. Not only is there not a united front among Asian men but this argument involves arguing against two groups, Asian women and white men.
I’ve also noticed that no one investigates if Asian women are at fault. My question is simple: Why isn’t there any scrutiny being placed on Asian women and finding their own political reasons for shunning Asian men? We all know the quote “it takes two to tango.”
When I’ve talked to non-Asian women, they all understand, in under 5 minutes, why Asian men would be emotionally hurt. Why does it take futile arguments with Asian women for years and yet, they still don’t understand? I think they just don’t want to admit the truth, that their actions are hurting their own communities and men. Either that or they’re apathetic and don’t care or belong to the popular “Asian man hate” club.
I think every Asian man in existence knows at least one of these types of Asian women. It’s about time we find out why.
Dialectic
12:07 am | Feb 14, 2008It’s great Russell made a joke about this. The best way to approach serious and controversial issues in a public setting is through humour, as long as it’s used with skill, which it is in Russell’s case.
Urb4n, you bring up a good point about the discussions with non-Asian women. The white, black, and Indian women I’ve discussed it with (I’m generally not the one who brings it up) all understand very easily that something is fucked up. If you’re a politically-minded Asian woman here who happens to agree that there’s something fucked up about the situation, you’re somehow “nationalistic” or “racist” or “militant.” Second-wave feminists and their proteges have really confused and harmed racial (and general social) discourse in recent decades. You were ahead of the curve once, but your time has passed!
jaehwan
12:56 am | Feb 14, 2008uRB4N,
Thanks again for your Russell Peters story. You and D are both right. There is a double standard, and it’s the dominant frame of thought because of the second wave feminists (and second wave feminists posing as third wave feminists). Though I don’t name it as such, I’ve posted a bit about why it affects Asian Americans here:
http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2008/01/27/the-fight-for-asian-american-studies/
But you pose a really good point about the non-Asian women. Why is it that non-Asian women seem to understand a lot more easily than Asian women? Even most of the non-Kingstonian (i.e. non-racist-against-Asian-men) Asian feminist works that focus on IR are written by white women like Karen Kelsky or Sheridan Prasso. Why is that? Let’s get an answer!
We all need to acknowledge the influence of Kingstonian Orientalism, and so when I pose this question, I truly do so with the intention of really finding an answer, not simply to throw down a challenge. So with that disclaimer, please proceed…
nightshade
1:13 am | Feb 14, 2008I’ve been thinking a lot about writing something to address all the AAFs who have CCB tendencies, but I don’t know where to begin. I’d have trouble being funny, which would mean I’d end up ranting. And no one likes a ranter.
Yet, here I go. If I hear one more AAF say, “I’m breaking stereotypes! Asian women are strong!” I am going to cut someone. Because “Asian women are strong!” secretly means “I have the right to marry a white man!”
Why are bitches fighting so hard to align themselves with white privilege, then hiding behind PC nonsense when anyone dares question their colonized mentality?
Re: Asian feminist works only being written by white women–let’s not forget that white women have the privilege to write about anything and the publishing industry will let them write about anything. An AAF who doesn’t follow the Kingstonian formula has to write one hundred times better than her white and sellout counterparts in order to have a shot at a book deal, because anything she writes will be considered unmarketable.
jaehwan
1:11 pm | Feb 14, 2008Hi nightshade,
Haha…”I am the woman warrior! Hear me roooaaarrr!”
That was a pretty funny comment. So I don’t think you’d have problems being funny, and it probably wouldn’t seem like a rant. And even if it does, no problem.
Point taken on the publishing industry. I also think it’s hard for women in general to come on strong, especially in a situation like this that demands strength. Even though I’m not a Clinton fan, I do see that people see her as bitchy if she comes on too strong. Her best tactic was crying, for crying out loud–pun intended. And it must be 100 times harder for an Asian woman.
So I’ll pull back on the publishing thing for urb4n and D’s question…why does this non-understanding occur more frequently among Asian American women, more so than among non-Asian American women?
uRB4N
3:35 pm | Feb 14, 2008I don’t think it’s that they don’t understand. They do; Asian women aren’t stupid nor are they apathetic. It’s more along the lines that their either ignorant of how society views this pairing and how it hurts Asian men in the long run, they don’t care as long as it’s not an Asian man in their personal circle that is hurt, they want to legitimize their relationship and want Asian me to accept it (in essence, they want to date white men AND expect Asian men to support them, and finally, they want to dig their head into the sand and not acknowledge their actions emotionally hurt Asian men.
I think it all revolves around an issue that Asian Americans are infamous for; social apathy.
SamuraiJack
2:53 am | Feb 15, 2008The problem is that “choice” is that it is currently being influenced by unnatural factors.
groinpull
6:12 pm | Feb 15, 2008meh, i think urb4n is lying and he’s probably just a former member on an alias. he reminds me of a particular member that I, and a lot of other people around here, are not very fond of.
i’m probably alone cause we’re all too happy to accept these ’stories’ as fact.
jaehwan
6:18 pm | Feb 15, 2008uRB4N:
What’s the difference between not understanding and being “ignorant of how society views this pairing and how it hurts Asian men in the long run?” (and I know you’re probably saying “ignorant” not in a pejorative way but simply meaning “not knowing.”) Isn’t it the same thing? I think most Asian women just don’t know, which may be understandable given the way in which the Kingstonians have killed dialogue among Asian Americans.
nightshade
10:34 pm | Feb 15, 2008I think the reason why a lot of Asian American women are unaware on this issue is privilege–the privilege of being seen as a desirable human being. People are usually blind to their own privilege. As well, there are very few areas in life that a woman of colour has any real privilege or power–unfortunately, this means that a lot of women are not going to question the one area of their lives that they consider a success. The part that becomes fucked up is that white men are seen as the ultimate prize and for some fucking retarded reason the CCB types think it’s necessary to belittle Asian American me.
A lot of sexual dynamics in the US, and by extension, in Canada, have root in racist ideas. Asian culture is portrayed by the West as weak and feminine. And Africa is portrayed as a dark, mysterious, violent, masculine place. What do we end up with? IR disparities in the Asian and Black communities, with people wanting to sex up Asian women and Black men.
Also, American culture is seriously scary when it comes to gender and sexuality and self worth–it’s a society that tells its women that they are only worthy human beings if guys want to fuck them.
nightshade
10:36 pm | Feb 15, 2008I meant to write “…for some fucking retarded reason the CCB types think it’s necessary to belittle Asian American men” not “me.” Cause I’m a chick, not a dude. Haha.
uRB4N
3:32 pm | Feb 16, 2008jaehwan,
Well, ignorance is if you don’t know about something whereas not understanding is if it’s explained to someone and they don’t comprehend, no?
I mean, you could be correct, I was under the impression that there is a difference.
nskripchun
3:17 am | Feb 17, 2008>A lot of sexual dynamics in the US, and by extension, in Canada, have root in racist ideas.
Gotta agree with nightshade on this one especially… as MG would say, colonized minds are (sadly) rampant in the Asian American community. Nobody outside the AA community is gonna fix it, either. As uRB4N ended his post, we have to be willing to dialogue about it and examine ourselves.
jaehwan
12:45 pm | Feb 17, 2008uRB4N:
I think it’s both ignorance AND not understanding. As an example, I know one AF married to an AM. I told her it was a big deal in the AA community. She argued with me, saying I was exaggerating. Then she went home and asked her husband. He verified what I told her. She finally got it. So you have both the ignorance and not understanding:
a)Ignorance, because she didn’t know.
b)Not understanding, because it took so long to explain it.
I think (and correct me if I’m wrong) what you and D were saying is that a white woman or black woman would have been more likely to understand right away.
Nightshade,
I think you’re right–some of these women get all uppity and then they belittle Asian American you…er, men. I think that even if we Asian American men weren’t in the picture (which we aren’t, if you look at the big Ivory tower that Kingston built), there are still many problems in Asian American culture with respect to women and the focus of sex. I’d actually love to see a real Asian American feminism come about in my lifetime, even if it means we Asian men get dogged–but it has to be based on truth, can’t just be the old Kingstonian mantra of we hate those evil stereotypical Chinamen but LOVE LOVE LOVE de white man.
nightshade
5:16 pm | Feb 17, 2008jaehwan–I think if real Asian American feminism were to come about, it wouldn’t be about dogging Asian American men. It couldn’t because Asian American men don’t hold the oppressive patriarchal power in the US or in Canada–well at least, they don’t for the Asian Asian women who have access to feminist and post-colonial thought. I can’t speak for the women who are living in poverty and must depend on their fathers or husbands for everything.
If a real Asian American feminism were to come about, it would be centred on dismantling the white patriarchy, and it would include Asian American men in the fight. There can be no Asian American feminism without first addressing the fight for racial equality.
Xian
1:22 am | Feb 18, 2008Well, there is a real feminism that has already come about that is against mainstream white female oriented fake-feminism, but unfortunately, it’s not too popular in Asian American circles, probably for the reasons of “I got one piece of privilege, why would I fuck with that?” that you brought up.
It’s a tangled web, though and it’s why the, “If the other side would just get their shit together” tack mires us in divided, in-fighting while the institutions of racism AND sexism endure and grow stronger.
There’s a lot of Asian American women who don’t like being discriminated against, but can mire themselves in self-hate and being the bearers of white hate toward AMs if they can get a few moments of sexual lust and the capital that comes with that lobbed in their direction by WMs.
There’s also a lost of Asian American men who hate their position but aren’t really interested in freedom, just getting laid a bit more, and would actually like the racist/sexism hierarchy to endure, as long as they are closer to the top.
The irony is that the solution to the bigger problem is also the solution to the individual problem–secure, confident individuals who mock these institutions and fight to destroy them are also easily the most charismatic and attractive people in the society.
I’m not saying that you have to be monogamous and serious and avoid the fling relationship. I’m saying that whatever you want, you’d rather be powerful and meaningfully attractive than just have some weird stereotype going your way that can melt at any moment.
AF, WM, whomever, do you really think they are any happier than you?
There can be no Asian American feminism that doesn’t simultaneously address the fight for racial equality. There can be no Asian American ethnic equality that doesn’t simultaneously address the fight for gender equality.
AM or AF, no one is going to get far mired in envy for White Privilege be it institutions of white supremacy or patriarchy.
AfroIndo
3:15 pm | Feb 18, 2008Nighshade summed it up for me (somewhat). But I beg to be weary on this thought: “There can be no Asian American feminism without first addressing the fight for racial equality”.
I can only point to black American females who are only now fighting their feminist battles after decades of first fighting alongside black men for racial equality (stupidly thinking the men had their backs). My Asian sisters, do you first!.
jaehwan
12:20 am | Feb 19, 2008Nightshade,
I agree with you. Haha…I guess I’m just setting my standards low–and I’m keeping the options for AF open. I’m not against taking a beating for any sexist stuff that AM have done, but I’d just hope that everyone would be held accountable (no Kingstonian free passes for white guys just for being white). And it would be great if it included Asian men.
Xian,
Good points. The strongest fighters are those who will be reject privilege for both themselves and the people who currently hold privilege.
AfroIndo:
Good points, but I think black civil rights is totally different. Somehow Asian Americans have had “feminism” (what xian might call “fake-feminism”) but we’ve never had much of a fight for racial equality. Strange parallel…
SamuraiJack
3:43 am | Feb 19, 2008AfroIndo, I think you need to have a better understanding of Asian issues. What you’re suggesting is akin to saying, “My black brothers, do you first!” (whatever that means). Your example actually runs counter to your argument.
I can only point to Asian American males who are currently fighting alongside Asian females for racial equality, stupidly thinking the women have their backs.
Xian
9:08 am | Feb 19, 2008Yes, but do we have their backs on gender equality issues? Do they have ours? For me, I always hold myself to make the first move. If you don’t model, it’s just everyone sitting around waiting for the other to do something so it’ll be “fair”. Fuck “fair”, let’s get free!
Ike
10:36 am | Feb 19, 2008Nightshade - Re: comment #16 - That was brilliant! One of the best things I’ve read about Asian American feminism.
SamuraiJack - There are many women who do have your backs.
Senkeh
3:47 pm | Feb 21, 2008“I think the reason why a lot of Asian American women are unaware on this issue is privilege–the privilege of being seen as a desirable human being. People are usually blind to their own privilege. As well, there are very few areas in life that a woman of colour has any real privilege or power–unfortunately, this means that a lot of women are not going to question the one area of their lives that they consider a success. The part that becomes fucked up is that white men are seen as the ultimate prize and for some fucking retarded reason the CCB types think it’s necessary to belittle Asian American me.
A lot of sexual dynamics in the US, and by extension, in Canada, have root in racist ideas. Asian culture is portrayed by the West as weak and feminine. And Africa is portrayed as a dark, mysterious, violent, masculine place. What do we end up with? IR disparities in the Asian and Black communities, with people wanting to sex up Asian women and Black men.
Also, American culture is seriously scary when it comes to gender and sexuality and self worth–it’s a society that tells its women that they are only worthy human beings if guys want to fuck them.” –Nightshade
Sweetheart, BEAUTIFULLY stated. Powerful too, especially that very last part. I swear I could your writing for hours. Just FYI.
Senkeh
10:06 pm | Feb 21, 2008“I swear I could READ your writing for hours. Just FYI.”
nightshade
10:09 pm | Feb 24, 2008*blushes*
jaehwan
3:01 am | Mar 01, 2008By the way, I’m participating in a discussion about this topic on Jenn’s reappropriate blog here:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/jennfang/1093/?src=hsr#27244
Eventually we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I’ve got a lot of respect for Jenn, but I think “activists” who don’t believe IR is an issue will either continue to beat themselves silly over activism that has no popular backing, or they’ll eventually come around to our side of the table.
CJF
5:12 pm | Mar 04, 2008We all know it’s due to racism. We all know it’s due to ignorance. We all know it’s a problem.
But the real question is, what should we do about it? When we speak, they clearly get defensive. When we put our heads down, we get the shaft. What should we do?
Should we continue troubles with Asian woman (assuming you are having troubles…we’ve all had our dating troubles so don’t be condescending), or should we go for different races ourselves? Maybe that’s the problem…that some Asian men aren’t willing to go IR, which makes Asian men too available for Asian women.
Just my .02