All else, you will learn later.

So you actually have thousands, if not millions, of Asian brothers finally realising the truth of their condition, finally learning how to name their pain, and then learning how to voice their sorrows and vent their rage. Will they be forever stuck at that stage, or will they finally come to that dreaded moment that will make them ask themselves if they will continue to the end of their days in such a manner, or ever do better and ever live the life that they have always wanted and DESERVED, and ever fulfil the SIMPLEST of needs and desires they have never yet fulfilled. What will you do?

What will be your role in this?

Will you tell them that their desires are wrong? That the simple need for sexual intimacy that OTHERS receive with complete ease and are not judged or punished for, is actually subjugating and sexually abusing women? Will you call them losers, sub-humans, freaks, “stunted”, developmentally challenged, as if now that they have a label they should know their place? Will you accuse them of petty motives and dire intent just for wanting to do better?

You may give them judgement, but others will trust their natures enough to GIVE them the POWER to take their lives back into their own hands.

In the end, they will know who it is they owe their gratitude to.

No problem, man, I don’t judge anyone who tries new experiences, and like xian said, I hope APB won’t judge you either.

D,

I’m in COMPLETE agreement with Xian on this issue, and though it seems like I may be in disagreement with you, I really don’t think so. I agree with you that a lot of us are “stunted.” I didn’t grow up normal myself. Really. I agree with you that some of us may need help, and I think it’s good to have people who are willing to help others.

So we really are in agreement with the following:

1. A lot of AA’s are stunted
2. A lot of them could use some help
3. It’s good for someone to give them this help

I just don’t agree with APB’s tactics. I’ve got nothing against the guy himself, but here is what I see:

1. He looks down on and mocks his clients (he agreed with this)
2. He’s tacky and has pictures of gross-looking women on his site
3. He doesn’t teach empathy towards women, and he treats women as objects

Based on #1, he doesn’t teach his clients self-respect. Based on #2, he shows bad taste in women. Based on #3, he doesn’t lay a good foundation for relationships with women. And as Xian mentioned, this could very much hurt his clients in the future. So what do you end up with? Clients who lack self-respect, hit on skanky women, and have bad relationships built without an empathetic foundation.

I agree with Xian again on that point that one doesn’t need boy skills to be a man. I meet tons of people in the course of my work, and when I meet a 45 year old guy who acts like he’s 19, gets drunk, shouts very loudly, and brags loudly about scoring chicks, it’s pretty pathetic. Yes, people who have had the opportunity to be boys are usually more well rounded. But boy skills should be developed when you’re a boy. You don’t need to have boy skills in order to be a man, and when you’re 45, you should act your age. When you’re 30 you should act your age. Hell, everyone should act their age.

Now obviously there are 45 year old men who are single. And obviously these men hit on women. But the focus is, or at least it should be, different. Time passes you buy, and if you don’t seize the opportunities when you’re best able to seize them, they go away, and they’re gone forever. The best people just move on to the next stage.

I’m not familiar with integral theory (at least not as much as you are), but it sounds like you’re taking a theory of government or societal maturity and applying it to people. While it may be true of people and their “normal” growth, there is no turning back. You don’t get more time than what Darwin allotted you. My one year old boy just stares at people. He just stares. If he wants to drool all over someone, he’ll do it. If he wants to shout when he’s happy, he just does it. He poops in his diaper. People, including me, think he’s really cute when he does all these things.

Now if I did any of that, people wouldn’t find it cute. And it would negatively affect my relationships with other people. There’s no turning back.

Think about it this way. Let’s say you skipped undergrad and began working in a steel mill. Now, at the ripe old age of 50, you decide to go back to school. Do you honestly think that the best way to get an education is to act like all the 18 year old freshmen? No. You’re at a different stage of life, and you have to work at whatever is best for you. In fact, you’ll hurt your ability to gain meaningful relationships from college unless you act in a manner that makes the best use of your experiences and older character.

Which brings me to another criticism of APB’s method. There doesn’t seem to be any depth to his approach. Older people should have more depth. They probably do. They should find it.

So I’m totally sensitive to “stunted” people. I think you and I are in agreement that something needs to be done. Given the criticisms of the APB method–which I think are perfectly valid–I think there is a better way to do it.

Remember, we don’t judge–hopefully APB won’t either.

I write about APB bootcamp experience later. I hope I could show some of you a side of APB that we don’t know about.

I also write about why I did. I know some of you want to assume why I did it but I write about it later. Don’t have time right now.

A college student doesn’t have to become an investment banker before becoming a doctor.

But let’s say you are right. It still doesn’t explain why he need to feel the need to mock his clients. The way to treat a stunted child is not to mock them until they stop being stunted. It’s definitely not to encourage them to have new pathologies.

It’s the same lie that’s been sold for centuries to powerless men–subjugate women and then you’ll be equal!

Many of these people have been developmentally STUNTED in their social and psychosexual lines.

Do you understand what this means?

It means that these lines have to be CAUGHT UP for further balanced, healthy growth to occur.

Wow, after all that I’ve said about this stuff, I can’t believe that I’m seeing such naivete.

If you want to use your terms, these guys have to learn to be proper boys before they can learn to be proper men. Do you understand this?

If you didn’t properly develop your “boy skills” you can’t just skip to being men. It doesn’t work like that.

You now need to consciously learn those “boy skills” which will then allow you to progress as men.

I can’t believe you haven’t gotten this.

This is how you deal with developmental “stunting” or “retardation.” You engage in a “regression therapy” that allows you to specifically address your lack of growth or maturity in that line and bring it up to par. Jesus Christ guys, have you understood nothing of what I’ve been saying?

You know what I’m seeing here? As I also implied in my integral forum thread about this, I’m seeing harsh, distinctly un-sensitive criticism from people who had the PRIVILEGE to grow up “normal.”

“The ability to approach women and not feel for them is rite of passage to boyhood, not a rite of passage to manhood.” Classic!

I have a 15 month old son, and I agree that socialization needs to take place when he’s a boy. He needs to learn how to talk to both boys and girls, and he needs to learn to be assertive. Right now, he’s still learning to put words together, and words will help to learn to socialize. It’s a boy’s quest, not a man’s quest.

APB:

Straight from the horse’s mouth–thanks for confirming our criticisms of your method. I said that you look down on the people you’re trying to be empathetic with (your students), and you confirmed that I am “absolutely 100% fucking right.” You even elaborate by calling them “boy’s trapped in a man’s body.”

Don’t you think there is a problem with this? You sell your services as some kind of societal good, and yet you look down on the people you’re supposed to be helping? Well, I’m glad hanging out with dorks and losers makes you feel better about yourself, but I wonder if these people would sign up with you if they knew how you really felt about them. I hope you don’t think I’m being “homoerotic” by calling this into question.

Xian is right; you should set your standards a bit higher. Empathy is not a bad thing. In my opinion, it’s a necessary component to becoming a man. As an aside to your chosen profession, “picking up” women through empathy is far superior to anything that I’ve heard from you. This is not a diss either; just something to think about as you collect checks from these people who you yourself feel are lonesome losers.

I do NOT teach ETHICS.

THE ASIAN PLAYBOY IS NOT YOUR MOMMY, YOUR FRIEND, OR YOUR MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR. [/quote]

You learned relationships from your MOMMY? That’s messed up dude.

Seriously, this was my whole point of posting the article. As I said, I think that it’s good that you are trying your best to tackle a serious societal problem.

But this last post confirms everything I was critiquing on–you don’t have end game and in fact you are someone who conflates empathy with weakness.

Let me respond with a few of my principles:

1. Caring for people is not a feminine trait; it’s a human trait.

2. Caring for people is not “homoerotic”. To imply so with a negative value judgment is homophobic, a misunderstanding of what the term “homoerotic” has been historical used to mean, and is flat out wrong. With no judgment, the historical term has defined the following to be “homoerotic”:
Football
Boys playing with Guns and each other with no women in sight
Guys tough loving each other toward hollow relationships with women
Avowed heterosexual guys having circle jerks voicing shallow homophobic views

That’s not a diss–”homoeroticism” is not equal to “homosexuality” and homosexuality is not on trial. Just be clear on your terms.

3. The ability to approach women and not feel for them is rite of passage to boyhood, not a rite of passage to manhood.

4. Empathy is not soft, it is bad-ass. Don’t confuse empathy with being a doormat. Empathy is what allows me to guess someone’s motivation and future action (like for example yours) and choose the most mutually beneficial action for the best future. That could be us hooking up. It could be you finding someone for yourself. It could be me leveling you on a message board so you lose a little swagger but gain a little humility. Base hook-up skills mean you can manipulate a few people. Real empathy means you have the skills to move anyone you encounter, for whatever purpose you deem to be desirable. So empathy can be used for ill as well. And not this surface, “I got you to sleep with me!” crap. It can be the most manipulative nasty force the world has ever seen.

Of course, for most it isn’t. Because once you gaze deep into someone’s soul and truly feel them, the vast majority of people feel love. Because with that level of secure power, there is little need to be self-interested or malicious. Actualization, anxiety or fear, sociality, competence and accomplishment, confidence, and yes, even sexuality become rather graceful, almost effortless.

It, not mescaline, is the only way to fly.

I think you need to become more empathetic. Read your own words. You’ve got little respect for the people you’re trying to be empathetic with, and it’s clear you look down on them. And xian’s right–you don’t teach empathy with women.”/

You are absolute 100% RIGHT.

I DO NOT teach EMPATHY.

I do not hand hold.

I do not hug them.

I do not cry with them.

I do not tell them it’ll be ‘ALL RIGHT’ if they bitch out.

I DO NOT TEACH FUCKING FAIRY TALES OR DELUDE THEM WITH FALSE ILLUSIONS THAT BOWING BEFORE THE WHITE MAN IS ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE DEEP DOWN INSIDE THEY’RE SPECIAL LITTLE FUCKING SNOWFLAKES AND SANTA CLAUS IS FOR REAL.

I am reality based. And results oriented.

Period.

Occasionally, an Asian Man has an EPIPHANY THAT IN ORDER TO BE CONFIDENT WITH WOMEN, HE NEEDS TO TRANSFORM HIMSELF INTO A BETTER MAN.

But that’s a bonus. A side effect of improving his skills and expanding his awareness and acceptance of both his strengths and weaknesses.

Quote a few Asian boys trapped in a man’s body have gone through a through Rite of Passage of Manhood during and as a RESULT of an APB Bootcamp…

But I don’t sell that. I don’t guarantee it. And I don’t market it.

You either have to impress me enough that you got big enough balls to step up or you’re nothing but a little bitch who still lives with mommy and daddy and the ONLY WAY TO FORCE HIM INTO MANHOOD…

Is to bitch slap the pussy out of him.

But that’s a bonus.

Rest assured, I excel at disabusing pathetic self-lies out of themselves and forcing them to critically examine the reality they find themselves.

Again, you are ABSOLUTELY 100% FUCKING RIGHT.

I do NOT empathize with cowardly Asian boys trapped in a man’s body.

I do NOT teach RELATIONSHIPS.

I do NOT teach ETHICS.

THE ASIAN PLAYBOY IS NOT YOUR MOMMY, YOUR FRIEND, OR YOUR MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR.

I am a coach, an instructor, and an unforgiving, unsympathetic drill sergeant.

If you guys want to teach “homoerotic mythopoetic manhood” ala touchy feely Dr. Phil, feel free to move into the forests for spiritual understanding with the universe.

I won’t stand in your way.

I claim one thing and one thing only… I teach a skill.

And ONE skill only.

Which is HAMMERING- into Asian boys and men- the ability, confidence, and skill of Approaching and Picking Up women no matter their race, culture, or level of beauty….

And I’m damn fucking good at it.

Everything else…

Is a bonus.

But yes, Xian and Jaewan, you both are absolutely right about me.