Lonely? Thoughts from a non-playa…
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At the risk of giving someone any further undeserved attention, let’s revisit the pick-up artist issue as it relates to Asian American men. Certainly the “if you really need help after all your patriarchal privilege” sounds logical, especially as it pertains to ethnic majority men, but mocking those who have difficulty finding someone to love doesn’t seem like a very empathetic approach either.
As always, let’s start with the “Why”s…
Why does this “industry” get any positive attention?
There is a real need. Regardless of race, economic class, etc., there are some people who have trouble getting what they want out of their love-life. This is not exclusive to men, and while there are some services for women, it’s logical that in a patriarchal society that many of these services would be for men. This is especially true for Asian American men, who enjoy many patriarchal advantages, but suffer tremendous racialized mistreatments in the sexual-racist arena of our society.
Why does this particular shallow technique get so much attention?
Well, I imagine because it’s a lot easier to give people some basic recipes than to give them real substance. This program does deliver what needy folks think they need in many cases. That sounds condescending, but I would argue that without the positive experience in the sexual arena, many men don’t know exactly what would make them happy. Perhaps spending some time with some modelesque folks will help them figure that out. Real empowerment tends to evoke eye-rolling because it’s harder than simply learning a few tricks.
Why does it evoke outrage?
I think there’s a number of reasons:
1. Since it often frames itself as against female agency, there’s a strong anti-female slant. Personally, this is an issue for me regardless of gender or sexual orientation–build yourself to be desirable and work with lucidly, consenting adults–stay away from deception and children.
2. There seems to be an “emulate white assholes” dynamic here. Sure, being an aggressive, domineering, sexist pig may “work” for our racial masters because of their inherent position in society, but that is not really something to emulate or envy.
3. Most importantly, it’s questionable that it leads to any real solutions and I would argue that what little confidence it might evoke is trumped by the bad habits that it may encourage. In other words, even while approaching women and having success with certain women becomes easier, you may be picking up habits that drive away long-term prospects. Surely we all have been or know that guy who can get laid every other night, but is miserable and has no chance of anyone taking him seriously beyond morning coffee?
So there is ample and substantive criticism of this “service”, but it doesn’t change one critical detail:
There is need.
In that respect–personal greed aside–this is a superior movement to the responses from much of the so-called feminist end of the Asian American community (we’ll leave a discussion of what the “real feminism is” for later, especially since I don’t want to get into the “mixed guy lecturing women on what feminism is” dynamic). At least PUAs are trying to do something instead of being the ventriloquist dummies of white oppression (”Asian American men whine too much and need to stop being pathetic and they’ll get laid because I love all people and am color blind”).
So rather than continue to rag on them, let’s put our money where our mouths are. Let’s present an alternative that addresses the problem and presents long-term solutions that improve the lives of those who are unsatisfied with their stake in the current climate of gender-racist sexual oppression.
I’ll present a few thoughts, but feel free to add your own–remember for all the stereotypes and oppression, we have a lot of folks who have transcended those to have successful love-lives.
First, a couple of little cosmetics…
1. Develop a personal style that shines with confidence. This does not mean stereotypical “good fashion”. If you dislike mainstream fashion and try to twist around yourself, people will see your awkwardness. Wear things that are artistic and you feel comfortable in. Find friends who rather than tolerating how you look, support you and nurture your confidence. I remember the first time one of my friends said, “You look like a model in that vest” lucidly, like it was happening right now. I bring that memory out whenever I feel down on myself, and in the years since I’ve added my other such memories.
This might take research and work. It took me a long time searching in Japan to find my style, and I still don’t feel comfortable in most American men’s clothes. In fact, if I’m forced to buy clothes in the States, I spend more time in the girls’ section. But don’t emulate me–find your own style.
2. Along the same lines, develop a sensible hygenic routine. Don’t go to extremes unless they make you feel really comfortable. It’s nice to smell good, so bathe frequently and use fragrances if you want to, but don’t overdo it. Show thought and time into your grooming, how ever you feel comfortable. Investigate hair styles and shaving patterns and pick something quirky that you like.
Now more of the key points…
3. Sincerely care about others and portray that unconditionally. If you are merely selfishly pursuing folks, anyone with a decent head on their shoulders will figure that out, so you will attract idiots or people who have security issues. If you like that, and you can do it without being abusive, more power to you, but that’s not where happiness is for most people. Do good things for others, but don’t see it as some type of pussy flea-market. Expecting intimate attention and sexual possibilities for niceness is creepy!
4. Build your empathetic skills. It never ceases to amaze me that people will spend hundreds of hours building skills that will only attract a segment of the population (like hitting the weights or doing their hair) and neglect the most important skills. Play ESP games where you try to guess what others are feeling. Use your friends, male and female, to test yourself and learn from the results.
5. Build your consistency and dependability. People want to be with someone who is skilled and capable. If they get a flat-tire, they don’t want someone who will toss up their hands and say, “Good luck!” When it’s something more profound than a flat-tire, this is even more the case. Most all-around attractive people know how to have fun, so they need someone who can help them through the bad times cause the good times are easy. Look at family crises and friends in trouble as people to genuinely help, but also learn from those situations.
6. Don’t be a doormat. Be assertive but not overbearing. Be confident, but not arrogant or if you are arrogant be self-depricating and make it a joke. As I said before demanding consideration for sexual possibilities is creepy, but being used is not attractive either. Have principled stands. If you are propositioned by a friend with a boyfriend, don’t respond desperately. “If you want to do this, I’d like it more than anything in the world, but you better call him and break up because I’m not going to mess up your life for you.”
7. Be honest and straightforward. Direct, but gracefully. Show the courage to not skirt around your feelings, but don’t apply pressure. In other words, when you find the object of your affection, tell them directly, but use all of those skills from above. Make them feel like it’s their decision, but do it in a way that projects confidence. “It’s your call, but I know I can make you happy because let’s face it, I’m good at it and it what I want to be doing!” Don’t hold back information to make yourself look better.
8. Approach any relationship with the best interests of the other person in mind. Don’t hide your weaknesses, showcase them and showcase your efforts to improve. When you reach the point that you can truly say that you are the best person in the world for them, you are impervious to jealousy and mistrust.
9. Be a student. Educate yourself on everything–academic and social. Nobody well-adjusted wants to be with an idiot.
While you digest and critique that, I’ll give full foreclosure so you can decide whether I’m worth listening to.
I am mixed white and Chinese American. My father is white; my mother is Chinese, born in Chicago a few days off the boat. I look non-white, and more often than not, people guess that I am Asian rather quickly although Latino is another common guess. I spent most of high school as a social reject, both on ethnicity and stereotyping (math geek), body type (super skinny) and age (graduated at 15). I had a second high school rennaisance where I got to hang out with public high school kids my age when I was 15-19.
I spent a lot of time wondering if I would ever get laid. I didn’t really have much of an idea of what to do with it. Over all of high school a couple girls were interested in me, but I did the normal youngster game of focusing on the unreachable and whining about it, and finding things wrong with those who were interested (too fat, too awkward (even as I was awkward), etc.). I asked a couple people out and was vaguely rejected, puked a dance (not actually “on” anyone :P)–normal high school stuff.
I had a weird experience with a family friends’ daughter where we were inseparable for a while and there was some “more-than-friendship” stuff going on, but nothing really articulated and by the time I figured out anything, she had jetted past me socially, but not before teaching me some stuff about how to empathize and read people.
Out of high school, I had some random encounters–a platonic intimate relationship with a much, older woman, a much younger girl trying to make out with me at a party, more random platonic relationships.
Finally, I fell for my one of my best friends’ girlfriends and we flirted slightly, but mostly I kept my distance. When they broke up, we still stayed apart for awhile, but it was kind of a foregone conclusion that things would work out–he was a good guy, but pretty oblivious to her needs and she was attracted to my empathy for her. We got together, it went wonderfully, I thought she was the only girl for me and no one would ever find me nearly as attractive, we were all bubbly and planning our future while my friend grew to hate me more and more.
During this time, I was picked out of a supermarket checkout line by a quirky, intelligent girl who I didn’t think too much of at the time. The bagger at the store was another friend and he introduced us. I spent the night at her house with a big group of people on the way to a rave.
When I went to study in Japan the first time, we stayed together long-distance, and I was true, although I was a little flirty in my new environment. Japan challenged my self-image and made me realize that there were few limits as to who I could attract. The “Asian guys are not attractive” handicap certainly didn’t apply, and I was in many ways in a special category since I was “exotic” and still “safer” than white foreigners (I know *puke*). Furthermore, my growing command of Japanese helped a great deal as I could present substance and wit that most “exotics” could not. But nights out with “fans” got tired quick and I started become annoyed with the attention, especially as I sought to spend more time with people who actually respected me for me.
At this time, I went home and spent time with my girlfriend. At this point, almost two years since the beginning of our courtship, the racial issues finally surfaced. I was crushed, after a few months broke it off entirely, and vowed never to consider white girls as a reasonable option ever again. Some white people (including my friends) called me a racist for that, and I don’t deny that, but all that showed me was that they couldn’t understand the depth of my despair.
I went back to Japan and stayed relatively chaste, but was a lot less picky about who I spent my time with and let things get a little physical on a number of occassions. Mostly, I went to the clubs and danced around sober while everyone was high on everything around me.
When I got home single and cynical about love, I hooked up with a Japanese exchange student who was about to go home for a minute. My Japanese friends were wary, but not surprised. I treated her well, but I think that I probably chose the relationship because I had no intention of it enduring.
I dropped her off at her dorm the morning of her flight home and wondered if I would even stay in contact. Meanwhile, I had started to hang out with supermarket girl, who we’ll call Liz in groups through the bagger friend who had become my best friend.
He had fallen for her, and was rejected. One night we went out dancing and then went back to Liz’s to help her with math homework. My friend got tired and went home and it soon became clearly that she needed no help with her math homework.
After we hooked up, we decided to give a real relationship a shot. Best friend was crushed, old best friend began talking shit about me and got all of my friend to see me as a girlfriend thief (as if women were property), and we tried to make things work. I was wary–I was leaving for Japan again in 9 months, I still had little faith or interest in dating interracial, and I didn’t believe it would last.
I had begun stockpiling tons of platonic female friends–not in a demeaning way, we were very transparent with each other that we found each other attractive but would not do anything untoward–and it made my girlfriend very uncomfortable. But she understood in time, and I began to get more comfortable. She knew my fears and on her own began to get very involved in the Asian American community. She quickly attained a leadership role in an Asian American umbrella political organization. As my fears melted, we started to consider long-distance again as a viable option. I maintained my friendships, but they were less insurance policies and increasingly just good friendships.
Three long-distance years later, I proposed on the lakeshore in Chicago, we married a year-and-a-half later. These days I smile profusely while injecting stories about my wonderful wife into conversation at every opportunity. I have confidence in my ability to attract and I don’t want there to be any misunderstandings.
These days, I never reach a point where I am inclined to cheat. I have no question that people are interested, but there is no need to consummate that. The momentary pleasure offered is nothing compared to the joy in my life, and the confidence that I’m an attractive person–regardless of what media tells me is there. It’s been a long journey, but the best way to feel good about yourself is to know that what is good about you is something that nothing–media, others’ opinions, changing trends, ageing, or anything–could possibly take away.
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Heyyu
2:45 pm | Sep 09, 2007Thanks for sharing this Xian. You’re pretty honest and straightforward. And I respect your advice more seriously than all the would-be Asian “playa’s.”
To be honest, the game of love & relationships is a crapshoot. While the basics are the same: be a decent person, be assertive without being a jackass, & have true self-confidence… and yes, looks matter a little since the person has to be attracted to you & vice versa (although the standards and types that people are attracted to are different for everyone… not everyone likes the muscle-bound hulk look or anorexic female model look).
But everything else is a shot in the wind. Don’t know if the bullet will come back and bite you in the ass. I think many people are too afraid to risk their hearts, cause in many cases, it will get shattered, and it will get shattered hard. But that’s life.
But again, it’s all about taking chances and seeing what happens. At least that’s my personal take on it. But thanks for sharing Xian and I honestly respect your outlook.
blockthebox
7:28 pm | Sep 09, 2007Great addition to the front page. It’s nice to have a different perspective.
CJF
11:22 pm | Sep 09, 2007Kinda funny, because a lot of those alternative suggestions are emphasized in the PUA community.
Candide
11:40 pm | Sep 09, 2007Nice article, but it’s pretty clear that you’re bagging something you haven’t even read about. In fact, if you eventually research it, you’ll find, as CJF said, yourself agreeing with the PUA community.
Xian
12:36 am | Sep 10, 2007Well, I’m not going to spend hundreds of hours researching this, and as I said, there are positives about what he in particular is doing. But looking at his website, I see no evidence of empathy or sincere care.
If I’m mistaken, please point out some evidence to the contrary, but in my experience (both direct and observational) the absence of those two traits generally leads to bad habits that leave you worse off in the long run.
Reading his accounts, it doesn’t even look like he is working on quick, mutually beneficial hook-ups between consenting, promiscuous adults. Most of the accounts seem to involve identifying someone in the 10th percentile of self-confidence and image and exploiting that.
CJF
1:51 am | Sep 10, 2007http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31466
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30513
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=29968
Xian, this is from one of the more influential members of the PUA community.
This is the essence of PUA. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but at the same time, nothing is perfect. Fighting44s isn’t perfect. Gandhi isn’t perfect. IMO it’s more positive than negative.
Dialectic
10:36 pm | Sep 10, 2007A compassionate and well-considered article, Xian. Thanks for posting this.
nskripchun
11:01 pm | Sep 10, 2007Xian! Nice to have you back, bro, and good to see you drop some knowledge. Your points 3-9 should mos definitely be taken to heart by people.
jaehwan
11:51 pm | Sep 10, 2007Good stuff. Thanks, Xian!
AfroIndo
4:39 am | Sep 11, 2007This part got me snickering : ” Expecting intimate attention and sexual possibilities for niceness is creepy!”
Reminds me of a Swiss work colleague who seeing that most women on our floor were exceedingly friendly, outgoing with me, begged me to introduce him to one of them he found interesting. I did, they went out to lunch, he found out she had a boyfriend already, was peed off. After getting back to his desk wrote her an email that she owed him for lunch as he didn’t know she was already involved with someone else. This guy (he’s blond, blueeyes) supposedly a “good” catch, but yet still single today and he wonders why!!!.
PS: By the way, this female friend’s boyfriend is an expat from Hong Kong…..
AsianPlayboy
3:54 pm | Sep 13, 2007“Well, I’m not going to spend hundreds of hours researching this, and as I said, there are positives about what he in particular is doing. But looking at his website, I see no evidence of empathy or sincere care.”
—
I gave a student “IamBrian” a free bootcamp because I was tired of his Keyboard Jockeying, negative, “Asian defeatist” attitude.
I’m also giving Adamm411 a free bootcamp except in his case, he’s been at this for 3-4 years and not ONCE been laid.
jaehwan
4:21 pm | Sep 13, 2007What does that have to do with xian? He’s not defeatist, he’s not keyboard jockeying, and he’s married.
Instead of giving away free bootcamps, why don’t you just fix your website instead? You can start by taking off the pictures of the sex toys and the cheap floozies.
Xian
8:44 pm | Sep 13, 2007I think he is trying to demonstrate empathy or sincere care.
I do believe that YOU have some empathy for your students–they may be in one way “marks”, but I don’t think you are intending to just exploit them.
My point is that I don’t see that you are teaching tools such are empathy or sincere care TO them, and thus handicapping them for the long haul.
jaehwan
11:00 pm | Sep 13, 2007Oops, my bad. I thought he was trying to say that his website is not representative of what he really is, and that like Adam and Brian, you would truly understand him if you went to one of his bootcamps.
I guess I just didn’t see the connection between being empathetic and giving away free bootcamps (or giving someone a free lesson in how to get “laid”). I guess we all have our own unique ways of being kind to one another.
AsianPlayboy
10:08 am | Sep 14, 2007—Xian
My point is that I don’t see that you are teaching tools such are empathy or sincere care TO them, and thus handicapping them for the long haul.
—
You say tomato, I say toe-mah-toe.
Confidence is created through successes and failures. But in order to actually achieve any of those two, they first have to DO. Like Wayne Gretzky said, “You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.”
So that’s the first step, by giving them practical based social-skills training, they’re given the tools necessary to take that first leap into the scary arena of dating & flirting.
A lot of these guys need to first defeat their fears which range from slight to- more often than night- catastrophically debilitating. Being a results oriented, practical guy- I shudder to even think about taking guys on a MYTHOPOETIC man-love sojourn into the forest and have a naked, group, bear hug so they can cry it out.
And, like I’ve stated before, it’s ENTIRELY up to them what they want to do with it and with whom. It’s certainly not my prerogative to decide. Quite frankly, I don’t feel it’s MY PLACE to make that kind of supposition.
In point of fact, during the last LA bootcamp, I choose to release one Asian student from the program free of charge. He was a devout Christian Asian (he was virgin) and only wanted equally as virginal Christian women.
I felt that:
1) He was taking the program for the wrong reason
2) For him to continue the program would induce a crisis of faith
3) I don’t want that kind of responsibility shaping another person’s morality and/or religious choices.
I am neither Oprah nor Dr. Phil. I just teach. And I’m damn good at it.
—jaehwan
I guess I just didn’t see the connection between being empathetic and giving away free bootcamps (or giving someone a free lesson in how to get “laid”)
—
Think of it like me donating ~$2.5K to the charity of the Asian Male Cause. Except I don’t get a tax break. And I still have to work my ass off for 30+ hours during the weekend for each of them.
Xian
11:47 pm | Sep 14, 2007Well, it’s a good question. I’m always a little suspicious of people who show their care for others through making money off of them or charity rather than exchange.
And regardless, it doesn’t show the fostering of empathy toward women from his students, so it doesn’t really speak to my critique.
Also, as an aside, I can never get over referring to people by their screen names.
jaehwan
11:10 pm | Sep 16, 2007Also, he’s rather dismissive of the people to whom he offered his charity. According to him, one practices “keyboard jockeying” and has a negative attitude, while the other is a failure for trying 3 or 4 years and “not once been laid.” It’s kind of like a philanthropist saying, “Look at how empathetic I am! I gave something to all those shiftless, lazy poor people!”
I don’t think the empathy or sincerity is there for either men or women.
Veryangry
1:14 pm | Sep 17, 2007What I would prefer to see is more Asian guys getting on the ground to help out their brothers.
Are you critiques doing this?
Veryangry
1:14 pm | Sep 17, 2007What I would prefer to see is more Asian guys getting on the ground to help out their brothers.
Are you critics doing this?
jaehwan
9:02 pm | Sep 17, 2007“What I would prefer to see is more Asian guys getting on the ground to help out their brothers.
Are you critics doing this?”
I’d prefer to see Asian brothers getting on the ground and promoting world peace.
Are you doing this?
Veryangry
7:31 am | Sep 19, 2007World peace. You make me laugh. But to answer your question, yes I am doing exactly that. When a man wants for nought, the chances are much lesser that he will take something from somebody else.
Xian
7:50 am | Sep 19, 2007[quote]What I would prefer to see is more Asian guys getting on the ground to help out their brothers.
Are you critics doing this?[/quote]
As everyone here knows, yes I have.
But it’s irrelevant because the point was not that APB should stop doing what he’s doing. It was that the way he does what he does could be detrimental to those he’s taking money from, and his condescending attitude toward other Asian guys probably doesn’t help this.
Cheerleading for him is unlikely to help Asian Guys on the Ground either, so what is it that you are doing?
Veryangry
8:19 am | Sep 19, 2007No I’m not “cheerleading” for him. It is unfair for a man to be torn down because he’s the only one who’s stepped up to the role. Your point about his methods has a direct link to how many people we have on the ground.
In the time that APB has started operating, he has reached hundreds of Asian men by now. Running this thing as a business and full time job allowed him to do this. I’ve met a lot of good people whom I owe much to. In direct contrast to APB, their reach is not long. They will at a maximum be able to extend guidance and advice to one or two new faces a month. Often, very much less.
I find it quite disingenious that people will nitpick on APB when the better alternative would have been to stop standing on the sidelines, and MATCH what he is doing but in a better way, if you feel so strongly about his methods. Then at the very least the man on the street would have a real alternative.
kwak76
8:47 am | Sep 19, 2007My view on APB is a bit more realitic. He just another guy who happens to be better with the women than the average joe and is willingly to teach other guys how to be better in approaching women. I don’t see APB as God or having the answer to everything. REAL CHANGE HAPPENS WITHIN. YOu can’t depend upon a dating guru to make you better with girls. The only thing a dating guru can do is point you the direaction and rest is up to you to make the best of it.
If someone thinks that APB is the almighty answer he has something else coming to him. I read some of APB blogs. I don’t think he sells himself as the almighty answer. Even he admits that a student of his has to undergo allot of changes and work to improve.
Is APB condescending to other Asian guys who suck with girls? Hmm…I don’t think it’s condescending I sense from him but more like “wake up it’s not as bad as you think”.
Veryangry
9:33 am | Sep 19, 2007I agree. Don’t deify APB, but stop demonising him.
jaehwan
12:57 pm | Sep 19, 2007“It is unfair for a man to be torn down because he’s the only one who’s stepped up to the role. Your point about his methods has a direct link to how many people we have on the ground.”
Your premise that “he’s the only one who’s stepped up to the role” is not correct; xian mentioned that he himself helps people. Even if your premise were true, it’s clear that that is not why people are tearing him down–actually most people are not tearing him down period; people are just criticizing his approach.
In any case, my point with “World Peace” was that unless there is a major contradiction between action and words (i.e. Bin Laden promoting Judaism), ad hominem arguments are irrelevant. Not many people do much for world peace, and I highly doubt you’re doing much for world peace either (which, I’m guessing, is why you answered the question rather quickly without backup evidence). But just because you’re not doing anything doesn’t take away your right to an opinion. Your own personal involvement or lack of involvement doesn’t affect your right to criticize or praise what other people are doing.
In this case, xian is active in helping Asian men. Azn man is active. Nobody is criticizing APB’s activism. We are just criticizing his methods. Since many of us feel that his methods actually hurt Asian men in the long run, criticism is justified.
Edwin
1:17 pm | Sep 19, 2007I don’t think APB methods are that detrimental. To have love or empathy towards women you must have experience with them first. APB is teaching guys who have no romantic interaction with women period. You can’t really teach empathy to someone, they have to learn that on their own through experience, interaction, and heartache.
I don’t think APB’s methods would create a bunch of pigs either because most of his students are probably shy nice guy types not playas or jerks. Otherwise why would they need his help? I’m guessing most of them are actually push-overs for the ladies. Even if they start off being jerks they will soon learn to deal with women after getting taught the hard way from the ladies themselves. But they need to go on more dates and get more experience first.
Veryangry
7:05 pm | Sep 19, 2007Hi Jaehwan, I was going to respond, but then I realised that I know very little of why you’re opposed to APB in the first place. I’ll listen instead. What is APB doing that you think is harmful to Asian men - I presume the actual individuals instead of the collective - in the long run? Xian has brought up the issue of sincerity and empathy, as well his opinion of the quality of the hook-ups already. Is there anything else?
You brought up the right to opinions, however. I’m not challenging that. I’m just saying that real action is what’s needed, not more opinions. I’m playing my part, Xian says he is, and you say Azn man is doing so too. I’ll accept that for the truth. The question is, how many guys have we reached so far? How many guys have we managed to take the time to actually show them the answers to their questions? Me? Far too few. I’m only standing up to the role because nobody else nearby is. By contrast APB has reached hundreds of men by now, spent thousands of hours of personal tuition, to show fellow men an answer to their questions. All this he can do because he teaches this as a full time job, it is his business, and has harnessed the power of marketing and networking. APB has reached hundreds, how many have you reached? Thus if APB is truly as dangerous or detrimental as you say he is, and if you don’t stand up to represent your better values and ways to give people an accessible alternative, then you’ve fucked us all.
I’m not saying put up or shut up, heaven’s sake, far from it. I’m saying that we should stand up to the role. The role in question here is showing a path in person to tens of thousands of fellow men who have questions but do not know anybody to take them to. Do you know how many guys, thanks to the summation of their life experiences, actually DISBELIEVE that they could ever be sexually attractive to women?? APB has done his part to dispel that notion in men a hundred times over. I think that’s pretty good. If you think that better could be done, you must do it.
jaehwan
11:21 pm | Sep 19, 2007APB:
I think you need to become more empathetic. Read your own words. You’ve got little respect for the people you’re trying to be empathetic with, and it’s clear you look down on them. And xian’s right–you don’t teach empathy with women.
Veryangry,
I just think APB’s approach is tacky. I mean, come on, have you looked at his website? Pictures of…ahem…toys. Cheap-looking women. It’s tacky.
To me, it’s not all about volume. I know tons of guys who trade on E-Trade and have lost tons of money. It’s about the quality. My issue is pretty much the same as xian’s. Why build your “game” on a foundation that has little empathy for your fellow men and none for women? I think xian’s approach is much better than APB’s.
“I’m just saying that real action is what’s needed, not more opinions.”
We’re going to have to disagree on this one. I think we need action, but I also think we need opinions.
My bottom line right now is this: I don’t know if we need people teaching PUA stuff. I really don’t know. It seems kind of silly to me. I’d rather send him to the Boy Scouts than APB Bootcamp; what he could learn as a Boy Scout would probably help him have better relationships with women than any of the stuff I’ve seen on APB’s website. But if these “instructors” want to teach PUA, it’s up to them. APB is free to do what he wants; I’m not going to say that he’s doing bad things or that it really matters how he earns his living.
But I think it’s tacky, and it definitely isn’t based on unselfish intentions. I’m just pointing that out.
Xian
12:51 am | Sep 20, 2007I’d rather send him to the Boy Scouts than APB Bootcamp; what he could learn as a Boy Scout would probably help him have better relationships with women than any of the stuff I’ve seen on APB’s website.
Sure, but in the Boy Scouts, it’s not like he would have any choice…;P
Veryangry
3:42 am | Sep 20, 2007You know, our differences aside, we probably have a lot in common. I’ve always gotten along better with people who are able to put aside petty mores to talk to another fellow human being. I never realised this until I immersed myself in an environment where people engaged in “status battles” on a regular basis, and there I drowned.
Let me backtrack. I’ll admit that opinions matter because if you dont have them you have either a closed stagnating mind, or have a distinct lack of will. But if you have a good opinion or idea, shouldn’t you act on it? That’s my gist really.
I’m also puzzled by your recommendation of the Boy Scouts as a solution. I know a lot of Boy Scouts who suck and can only get laid in whorehouses. Those boys did not grow into Men.
Look at the thing here. Trace back every step of your way through your awareness of the issues we face and your activism. Can you still even remember the number of times you have heard Asian American men telling tales of woe, of being unable to find love or sexual intimacy with women? I still remember the stories. They are horrible. The things that some men are put through can make them feel a lot less than human. More like an animal. Or worse, just a thing. And they started out nothing more or less than the way you and I started out, only circumstances were different.
I have no doubt that you know this and do what you can. But up until APB started his business, nobody has stood up to SHOUT out “Look here, I as an Asian man can do this, and I will show you how it is done”.
We need more voices added to chorus. Loud ones. Yours too. And we need more methods, more representation, and more examples.
Veryangry
3:42 am | Sep 20, 2007I’ll step off my soapbox now. :p
XD
Xian
7:07 am | Sep 20, 2007Right, but a successful strategic movement is not just a cacophony of chittering voices. I’m not arguing that APB should give up and go home. At least I don’t think I am–if I did, my position has changed. I’m critiquing his strategy so his execution fits more in line with these assumed positive goals we are agreeing on.
It’s never a good idea to say, “Your approach is not perfect so you need to stop!” or on the flipside, “I have no need to improve–how dare you critique me when I’m doing something!”
jaehwan
11:05 am | Sep 20, 2007“Sure, but in the Boy Scouts, it’s not like he would have any choice…;P”
Hahaha!
Hmm…I’m curious about how this idea of no-women has other applications. Another idea: put him on a tropical island, far, far away from women, and when he gets out, he’ll REALLY be into women. Remember the movie “Twins” when Arnold sees a girlie mag for the first time?
“I’m also puzzled by your recommendation of the Boy Scouts as a solution. I know a lot of Boy Scouts who suck and can only get laid in whorehouses. Those boys did not grow into Men.”
I know of APB students who “can only get laid in whorehouses.” Look at “Adamm411″ who APB mentions. And I haven’t even met the guy!
“It’s never a good idea to say, “Your approach is not perfect so you need to stop!” or on the flipside, “I have no need to improve–how dare you critique me when I’m doing something!””
Right on.
t-tocs
9:47 pm | Sep 21, 2007Great article. Thanks for sharing.
AsianPlayboy
4:32 am | Sep 23, 2007/ “jaehwan
I think you need to become more empathetic. Read your own words. You’ve got little respect for the people you’re trying to be empathetic with, and it’s clear you look down on them. And xian’s right–you don’t teach empathy with women.”/
You are absolute 100% RIGHT.
I DO NOT teach EMPATHY.
I do not hand hold.
I do not hug them.
I do not cry with them.
I do not tell them it’ll be ‘ALL RIGHT’ if they bitch out.
I DO NOT TEACH FUCKING FAIRY TALES OR DELUDE THEM WITH FALSE ILLUSIONS THAT BOWING BEFORE THE WHITE MAN IS ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE DEEP DOWN INSIDE THEY’RE SPECIAL LITTLE FUCKING SNOWFLAKES AND SANTA CLAUS IS FOR REAL.
I am reality based. And results oriented.
Period.
Occasionally, an Asian Man has an EPIPHANY THAT IN ORDER TO BE CONFIDENT WITH WOMEN, HE NEEDS TO TRANSFORM HIMSELF INTO A BETTER MAN.
But that’s a bonus. A side effect of improving his skills and expanding his awareness and acceptance of both his strengths and weaknesses.
Quote a few Asian boys trapped in a man’s body have gone through a through Rite of Passage of Manhood during and as a RESULT of an APB Bootcamp…
But I don’t sell that. I don’t guarantee it. And I don’t market it.
You either have to impress me enough that you got big enough balls to step up or you’re nothing but a little bitch who still lives with mommy and daddy and the ONLY WAY TO FORCE HIM INTO MANHOOD…
Is to bitch slap the pussy out of him.
But that’s a bonus.
Rest assured, I excel at disabusing pathetic self-lies out of themselves and forcing them to critically examine the reality they find themselves.
Again, you are ABSOLUTELY 100% FUCKING RIGHT.
I do NOT empathize with cowardly Asian boys trapped in a man’s body.
I do NOT teach RELATIONSHIPS.
I do NOT teach ETHICS.
THE ASIAN PLAYBOY IS NOT YOUR MOMMY, YOUR FRIEND, OR YOUR MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR.
I am a coach, an instructor, and an unforgiving, unsympathetic drill sergeant.
If you guys want to teach “homoerotic mythopoetic manhood” ala touchy feely Dr. Phil, feel free to move into the forests for spiritual understanding with the universe.
I won’t stand in your way.
I claim one thing and one thing only… I teach a skill.
And ONE skill only.
Which is HAMMERING- into Asian boys and men- the ability, confidence, and skill of Approaching and Picking Up women no matter their race, culture, or level of beauty….
And I’m damn fucking good at it.
Everything else…
Is a bonus.
But yes, Xian and Jaewan, you both are absolutely right about me.
Xian
9:40 am | Sep 23, 2007[quote]I do NOT teach RELATIONSHIPS.
I do NOT teach ETHICS.
THE ASIAN PLAYBOY IS NOT YOUR MOMMY, YOUR FRIEND, OR YOUR MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR. [/quote]
You learned relationships from your MOMMY? That’s messed up dude.
Seriously, this was my whole point of posting the article. As I said, I think that it’s good that you are trying your best to tackle a serious societal problem.
But this last post confirms everything I was critiquing on–you don’t have end game and in fact you are someone who conflates empathy with weakness.
Let me respond with a few of my principles:
1. Caring for people is not a feminine trait; it’s a human trait.
2. Caring for people is not “homoerotic”. To imply so with a negative value judgment is homophobic, a misunderstanding of what the term “homoerotic” has been historical used to mean, and is flat out wrong. With no judgment, the historical term has defined the following to be “homoerotic”:
Football
Boys playing with Guns and each other with no women in sight
Guys tough loving each other toward hollow relationships with women
Avowed heterosexual guys having circle jerks voicing shallow homophobic views
That’s not a diss–”homoeroticism” is not equal to “homosexuality” and homosexuality is not on trial. Just be clear on your terms.
3. The ability to approach women and not feel for them is rite of passage to boyhood, not a rite of passage to manhood.
4. Empathy is not soft, it is bad-ass. Don’t confuse empathy with being a doormat. Empathy is what allows me to guess someone’s motivation and future action (like for example yours) and choose the most mutually beneficial action for the best future. That could be us hooking up. It could be you finding someone for yourself. It could be me leveling you on a message board so you lose a little swagger but gain a little humility. Base hook-up skills mean you can manipulate a few people. Real empathy means you have the skills to move anyone you encounter, for whatever purpose you deem to be desirable. So empathy can be used for ill as well. And not this surface, “I got you to sleep with me!” crap. It can be the most manipulative nasty force the world has ever seen.
Of course, for most it isn’t. Because once you gaze deep into someone’s soul and truly feel them, the vast majority of people feel love. Because with that level of secure power, there is little need to be self-interested or malicious. Actualization, anxiety or fear, sociality, competence and accomplishment, confidence, and yes, even sexuality become rather graceful, almost effortless.
It, not mescaline, is the only way to fly.
jaehwan
1:16 pm | Sep 23, 2007Awesome reply, Xian! I hate to say it, but I think I like response #37 even more than the original post! My favorite quote was this:
“The ability to approach women and not feel for them is rite of passage to boyhood, not a rite of passage to manhood.” Classic!
I have a 15 month old son, and I agree that socialization needs to take place when he’s a boy. He needs to learn how to talk to both boys and girls, and he needs to learn to be assertive. Right now, he’s still learning to put words together, and words will help to learn to socialize. It’s a boy’s quest, not a man’s quest.
APB:
Straight from the horse’s mouth–thanks for confirming our criticisms of your method. I said that you look down on the people you’re trying to be empathetic with (your students), and you confirmed that I am “absolutely 100% fucking right.” You even elaborate by calling them “boy’s trapped in a man’s body.”
Don’t you think there is a problem with this? You sell your services as some kind of societal good, and yet you look down on the people you’re supposed to be helping? Well, I’m glad hanging out with dorks and losers makes you feel better about yourself, but I wonder if these people would sign up with you if they knew how you really felt about them. I hope you don’t think I’m being “homoerotic” by calling this into question.
Xian is right; you should set your standards a bit higher. Empathy is not a bad thing. In my opinion, it’s a necessary component to becoming a man. As an aside to your chosen profession, “picking up” women through empathy is far superior to anything that I’ve heard from you. This is not a diss either; just something to think about as you collect checks from these people who you yourself feel are lonesome losers.
Dialectic
4:10 pm | Sep 26, 2007Wow, talk about getting the point but completely missing it.
Many of these people have been developmentally STUNTED in their social and psychosexual lines.
Do you understand what this means?
It means that these lines have to be CAUGHT UP for further balanced, healthy growth to occur.
Wow, after all that I’ve said about this stuff, I can’t believe that I’m seeing such naivete.
If you want to use your terms, these guys have to learn to be proper boys before they can learn to be proper men. Do you understand this?
If you didn’t properly develop your “boy skills” you can’t just skip to being men. It doesn’t work like that.
You now need to consciously learn those “boy skills” which will then allow you to progress as men.
I can’t believe you haven’t gotten this.
This is how you deal with developmental “stunting” or “retardation.” You engage in a “regression therapy” that allows you to specifically address your lack of growth or maturity in that line and bring it up to par. Jesus Christ guys, have you understood nothing of what I’ve been saying?
You know what I’m seeing here? As I also implied in my integral forum thread about this, I’m seeing harsh, distinctly un-sensitive criticism from people who had the PRIVILEGE to grow up “normal.”
Xian
4:55 pm | Sep 26, 2007There is no evidence that one needs to develop boy skills before men skills except for the fact that as an adolescent, you may have them beaten out of you.
A college student doesn’t have to become an investment banker before becoming a doctor.
But let’s say you are right. It still doesn’t explain why he need to feel the need to mock his clients. The way to treat a stunted child is not to mock them until they stop being stunted. It’s definitely not to encourage them to have new pathologies.
It’s the same lie that’s been sold for centuries to powerless men–subjugate women and then you’ll be equal!
kwak76
8:28 pm | Sep 27, 2007Guys I actually signed for APB bootcamp. Ok please don’t laugh at me but fuck I know I have some weakness in my approaches to women .AM i sexist or a pervert for doing this ? Hell no. Am I emotional stunted ? I don’t think so.
I write about APB bootcamp experience later. I hope I could show some of you a side of APB that we don’t know about.
I also write about why I did. I know some of you want to assume why I did it but I write about it later. Don’t have time right now.
Xian
8:50 pm | Sep 27, 2007It’s never bad to try new experiences, just don’t sell yourself short or out, and observe and learn.
Remember, we don’t judge–hopefully APB won’t either.
jaehwan
12:47 am | Sep 28, 2007Kwak,
No problem, man, I don’t judge anyone who tries new experiences, and like xian said, I hope APB won’t judge you either.
D,
I’m in COMPLETE agreement with Xian on this issue, and though it seems like I may be in disagreement with you, I really don’t think so. I agree with you that a lot of us are “stunted.” I didn’t grow up normal myself. Really. I agree with you that some of us may need help, and I think it’s good to have people who are willing to help others.
So we really are in agreement with the following:
1. A lot of AA’s are stunted
2. A lot of them could use some help
3. It’s good for someone to give them this help
I just don’t agree with APB’s tactics. I’ve got nothing against the guy himself, but here is what I see:
1. He looks down on and mocks his clients (he agreed with this)
2. He’s tacky and has pictures of gross-looking women on his site
3. He doesn’t teach empathy towards women, and he treats women as objects
Based on #1, he doesn’t teach his clients self-respect. Based on #2, he shows bad taste in women. Based on #3, he doesn’t lay a good foundation for relationships with women. And as Xian mentioned, this could very much hurt his clients in the future. So what do you end up with? Clients who lack self-respect, hit on skanky women, and have bad relationships built without an empathetic foundation.
I agree with Xian again on that point that one doesn’t need boy skills to be a man. I meet tons of people in the course of my work, and when I meet a 45 year old guy who acts like he’s 19, gets drunk, shouts very loudly, and brags loudly about scoring chicks, it’s pretty pathetic. Yes, people who have had the opportunity to be boys are usually more well rounded. But boy skills should be developed when you’re a boy. You don’t need to have boy skills in order to be a man, and when you’re 45, you should act your age. When you’re 30 you should act your age. Hell, everyone should act their age.
Now obviously there are 45 year old men who are single. And obviously these men hit on women. But the focus is, or at least it should be, different. Time passes you buy, and if you don’t seize the opportunities when you’re best able to seize them, they go away, and they’re gone forever. The best people just move on to the next stage.
I’m not familiar with integral theory (at least not as much as you are), but it sounds like you’re taking a theory of government or societal maturity and applying it to people. While it may be true of people and their “normal” growth, there is no turning back. You don’t get more time than what Darwin allotted you. My one year old boy just stares at people. He just stares. If he wants to drool all over someone, he’ll do it. If he wants to shout when he’s happy, he just does it. He poops in his diaper. People, including me, think he’s really cute when he does all these things.
Now if I did any of that, people wouldn’t find it cute. And it would negatively affect my relationships with other people. There’s no turning back.
Think about it this way. Let’s say you skipped undergrad and began working in a steel mill. Now, at the ripe old age of 50, you decide to go back to school. Do you honestly think that the best way to get an education is to act like all the 18 year old freshmen? No. You’re at a different stage of life, and you have to work at whatever is best for you. In fact, you’ll hurt your ability to gain meaningful relationships from college unless you act in a manner that makes the best use of your experiences and older character.
Which brings me to another criticism of APB’s method. There doesn’t seem to be any depth to his approach. Older people should have more depth. They probably do. They should find it.
So I’m totally sensitive to “stunted” people. I think you and I are in agreement that something needs to be done. Given the criticisms of the APB method–which I think are perfectly valid–I think there is a better way to do it.
Veryangry
5:22 pm | Sep 28, 2007The difference is that a lot of people think there’s a better way to do it, but few actually SHOW how it is done, or TEACH that.
So you actually have thousands, if not millions, of Asian brothers finally realising the truth of their condition, finally learning how to name their pain, and then learning how to voice their sorrows and vent their rage. Will they be forever stuck at that stage, or will they finally come to that dreaded moment that will make them ask themselves if they will continue to the end of their days in such a manner, or ever do better and ever live the life that they have always wanted and DESERVED, and ever fulfil the SIMPLEST of needs and desires they have never yet fulfilled. What will you do?
What will be your role in this?
Will you tell them that their desires are wrong? That the simple need for sexual intimacy that OTHERS receive with complete ease and are not judged or punished for, is actually subjugating and sexually abusing women? Will you call them losers, sub-humans, freaks, “stunted”, developmentally challenged, as if now that they have a label they should know their place? Will you accuse them of petty motives and dire intent just for wanting to do better?
You may give them judgement, but others will trust their natures enough to GIVE them the POWER to take their lives back into their own hands.
In the end, they will know who it is they owe their gratitude to.
Veryangry
5:25 pm | Sep 28, 2007Brothers, if you ever find yourself in the black firestorms of hell struggling to climb out of the bottomless pit, know that the only two things you will ever need will be the willpower to endure and prevail, and the resilience to carry on until triumph.
All else, you will learn later.