Brown’s “Wall of Shame” on Inter-racial Dating
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After a bit of searching, I managed to find an article I read a few years ago which opened my eyes to a perspective on inter-racial dating held by some Black women. Essentially, in the mid-nineties, a group of Black women at Brown University were so hurt and frustrated by what they perceived as the eagerness of Black men to date white women that they created a “Wall of Shame.” On this wall, they put photos of Black men who they felt were “guilty” of shunning Black women for white women, and perpetuating notions of white superiority in beauty.
It had an impact on me when I read it, because their feelings were so close to the feelings of some Asian-American males. If you replace “Black men” with “Asian women,” “Black women” with “Asian men,” and “white women” with “white men” in this article, you’ll get something that is pretty much 100% applicable in tone and feeling to the Asian-American situation and discourse.
This article brings up so many points of discussion, I can’t believe I didn’t search it out sooner. I’ll have more comments to make on it, and on this topic in general, since I feel the air is so thick with ego and pain and distortion, but I wanted to put up the article immediately so that people could understand a similar situation and set of emotions from a perspective where the race is different and the genders are reversed, which might serve as a basis for future reasoned and compassionate discussion.
From a Google cache of an article by the Chronicle of Higher Education
Interracial Dating Angers Many Black Women at Brown U.
By Ben Gose
From the issue dated May 10, 1996
Lauren Handelsman, a white sophomore at Brown University, didn’t expect many problems when she began dating a black student in the fall of 1994.
“We’re at Brown,” she remembers telling Thabiti Brown, her boyfriend, who is also a sophomore, as their friendship grew serious. “People are really open-minded here. People are nice here.”
“Well,” she says now, “I guess not.”
She had expected a few racist asides when they walked off-campus in Providence holding hands, or maybe some awkward small talk at mostly white parties.
Instead, the most flak has come from black women who think that black men who date non-black women are abandoning their race, Ms. Handelsman says. Many of them glare when she and Mr. Brown walk around the campus, she says. Friends tell her that some black women criticize her behind her back.
Last October, in an incident that still has students talking, seven black women got personal in their crusade against black-white romance.
The women, who had gathered in the dormitory room of Felicia Carmen Lyde, a sophomore, scrawled “Wall of Shame” on a wall with an erasable blue marker. They then wrote the names of famous black men who either date or have married white women, according to Ms. Lyde.
Then, on the door of Ms. Lyde’s room, the women made a second list, with about a dozen names of black men on the campus who, they said, date white women — including Thabiti Brown and, simply, “the basketball team.”
Ms. Lyde lives on the busy first floor of Harambee House, a dormitory for students who are interested in African-American culture. News of the “Wall of Shame” circulated quickly, setting off fierce arguments within the black community at Brown. Men on the list were hurt, as were children of mixed-race marriages. Most Brown students, however, did not learn about it until Michael Maimon, a white columnist at The Brown Daily Herald, the student newspaper, wrote about it in January.
The black women who created the list say it was the result of frustration that has been building for a long time. Black men at Brown have simply rejected them, they say.
“People come up to me and say, ‘Why did you do it? Didn’t you know it would hurt people’s feelings?’” says Ms. Lyde.
“Didn’t they know that my feelings have been hurt all along?”
When Ms. Handelsman heard about the list from a friend, she stayed up all night crying. “I was very upset, offended, hurt — just angry in general,” she says.
On one level, the controversy involving interracial dating at Brown is simply the most intimate version of a broader campus debate involving race and ethnicity. At many colleges, the need for racial solidarity runs up against the ideal of race-blindness in such issues as housing and special orientation programs for minority students.
But the dating issue is also a question of demographics. At Brown, black women outnumber black men 211 to 154. The discrepancy is even wider nationally. About 900,000 black women were enrolled in undergraduate and graduate programs at colleges and universities in 1994, compared with 550,000 black men, according to the U.S. Department of Education.
It makes things worse, says Leslie Abrams, a black junior at Brown, when “the black men who are here don’t want to have anything to do with you.” She says she was not involved in the “Wall of Shame” but sympathizes with those who created it.
Some black women at Brown believe that half of the black men there date white women at least occasionally.
But Ralph Johnson, a sophomore who made Ms. Lyde’s list, says he can count the number of black men in relationships with white women on two hands.
Mr. Johnson, who says he usually dated black women in high school, says he fell for Rachel Davidson, who is white, shortly after a friend introduced them in a campus cafeteria. They have dated for more than a year now.
“Two people can love each other, and there should be nothing wrong with that,” he says. “I cannot be blamed for the lack of black men who get together with black women.”
Rarely do controversies over interracial dating become public. Last spring, a Yale University graduate set off a furor on that campus with an article in The New York Times in which she described the dim prospects that black women at Yale faced in trying to get a date. The story said some black women were tolerating unfaithful boyfriends or were bowing to sexual pressure.
On weekend nights at Brown, Ms. Lyde says, “black women just sit around and talk with each other. That’s it.”
Ms. Handelsman says that she understands why black women are angry, but that the “Wall of Shame” was such a personal attack that it should have been treated as a violation of the student-conduct code. She took her complaints to Leonard Perry, an associate dean of student life who also serves as an adviser to Harambee House.
He visited Ms. Lyde’s room but says he saw only a few names on her door, and nothing that said “Wall of Shame.” Because Ms. Handelsman did not file a written complaint, the university did not conduct a formal investigation.
Mr. Perry noted tension between black men and women in the dormitory, however, and suggested a workshop on interracial dating.
About 50 students — almost all of them black, and two-thirds of them women — talked, cried, and shouted during a tempestuous four-hour meeting. When some black men denied that they loathed their own race, black women began to call out more names of black men who date white women.
Some students were angry that the administration had not responded more forcefully to the list.
“For Brown to ignore the ‘Wall of Shame’ is really pretty wild,” says Tabitha Suarez, a Daily Herald columnist. “Brown is the kind of university that goes haywire over any breach of sensitivity.”
Black women say black men naively succumb to standards of beauty drawn from mainstream magazines and movies, which present blond, blue-eyed women as the ideal.
Ms. Abrams, the Brown junior, who grew up in Gulfport, Miss., says that as a teen-ager, she went to bed wishing that her kinky hair would straighten by the time she awoke. Now she’s learned to love her hair, and she’d like black men to do the same. “If you’re in love, and it’s a simple matter of attraction, then go for it,” she says. “But if you’re attracted to a white woman because you’ve been taught that white is the prime standard of beauty, then that’s problematic.”
The women at Brown have a point, says Larry Hajime Shinagawa, an assistant professor in the department of American multicultural studies at Sonoma State University who has studied interracial marriage. Twice as many black men as black women are married to whites, he notes, adding that stereotypes have something to do with the pattern.
Some black men may accept racist stereotypes of black women as bossy homemakers or strident complainers, he argues. “Unfortunately, there are still some very, very negative views about black women in this society.”
Ms. Abrams says some black men are looking for a chance to “step up” to the white world. “I’ve heard guys here say they’re going to go get their good job, their big salary, their big house, their big cars — and their white wife.”
She isn’t interested in dating outside her race, she says, because she worries about the way racism might subtly infect the relationship.
Mr. Johnson, the Brown sophomore, says black women are overstating the extent of interracial dating. While black women flock around what he calls “flashy guys” and athletes, he says, quiet and studious black men are ignored.
Black women “should start looking up” at all the available men around them, he says. “These are brothers who will be running companies someday.”
He says the idea that he has turned his back on his race by dating a white woman is absurd. He is the treasurer of Brown’s largest black-student group, the Organization of United African Peoples, and spent much of this winter scheduling campus speakers for Black History Month. Once a week, he heads to a Providence community center where he serves as a mentor for black high-school students.
The “Wall of Shame” is a distraction, he says. “There are so many other things that need this kind of energy and attention.”
Ms. Davidson, his girlfriend, says she wasn’t surprised by the naming of names on the door. She had sensed resentment from some black women from the first week of her relationship. “It was just a blatant display of something that we knew existed subtly,” she says.
The incident has strained relations between allies in Brown’s minority community. Several members of the Brown Organization of Multiracial and Biracial Students have one parent who is black and another who is white. “It’s indirectly expressing disapproval for their existence,” says Emily Lam, a leader of the group. She is of Chinese and Peruvian ancestry.
Jocelyn Burrell, a freshman who has a black father and a white mother, says she was devastated when she heard of the list. As a child, she says, she was stung when she overheard black men make “horribly derogatory” comments about black women.
She attended the heated meeting about interracial dating at Harambee House in part because she wanted to commiserate with the black women, she says. Yet she also wanted to tell them how badly she had been hurt by their action.
But the black woman leading the conversation would not let her speak, she says, because she is dating a white high-school student. “It’s like there was a hierarchy of pain.”
There is for Ms. Lyde. “I’m trying to talk to the black man, and they’re crying about being insulted. That’s the problem — everyone wants to get in on the conversation.”
Several black men have erased their names from the list on Ms. Lyde’s door. But even after eight months, two names remain. Ms. Lyde has no plans to remove them.
“Is it not the truth?” she asks.
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CJF
12:33 pm | Aug 10, 2007In blacks, there is a desparity between BF/WM and BM/WF, except it is opposite from Asian American and not as bad.
Maxjulian
1:03 pm | Aug 10, 2007Good article. Why are so many black men supposedly dating outside of the race? Is it simply self-hate? Could there be other reasons, in combination, that account for this phenomenon? Since it takes two to tango - or not tango in this case - what are these black women bringing to the table? What is their contribution to the failure of black relationships? Or are they simply victims of black men?
I understand being hurt because you can’t get a date and being concerned about the race and how we relate to each other; but to mount a PR campaign against “black men who date white women”?! How will that breed good relations between black women and men?
I can relate to the comment in the article about bookish guys being passed over for roughrider types. That happens and is justifiable. People’s taste is people’s taste. But I’m not getting out on a street corner because I fine sisters step over and around me to get to Michael Vick.
The response of the Brown coeds is an infantile response to a serious issue - the breakdown in the relations between black men and women - and perhaps this communications ’strategy’ is connected to why relations are so bad in the first place. How about talking To and not AT each other; get in a room and speak from the heart. AND, take a look at yourself and figure out how YOU contribute to your being alone.
MelaninManson
7:51 pm | Aug 10, 2007“If you replace “Black men” with “Asian women,” “Black women” with “Asian men,” and “white women” with “white men” in this article, you’ll get something that is pretty much 100% applicable in tone and feeling to the Asian-American situation and discourse.” - Dialectic
Wow. That’s a frightening article. I think I would have gone to jail had someone in Cornell attempted such blatant disrespect towards me just because of my personal life. That article displays the problems that occur when people allow their bitterness and anger to replace reasonable thought on political issues. I really hope the Asian American male argument involves more than the knee-jerk “Why won’t they date us?” vibe those Black women at Brown exposed. Seriously, this idea that members of a particular racial group are socially obligated to date each other has no place in any free multicultural and multiracial country. A person’s racial identity should not be called into question because of their dating choices.
Frankly, this extended focus on interracial dating as antagonistic to the best interests of Black women and/or Asian men only divides communities already under siege from all manner of serious socio-economic issues. The unceasing IR debate allows bitter single people of color to whine about their loneliness and label that whining ‘activism’. It’s absurd and wasteful energy. A ‘Wall of Shame’ to cajole and berate Black men into dating Black women? That’s so utterly pathetic I’m surprised the people involved allowed themselves to be quoted in the media.
jaehwan
8:21 pm | Aug 10, 2007“I think I would have gone to jail had someone in Cornell attempted such blatant disrespect towards me just because of my personal life.”–Melanin
Melanin:
Why would YOU have gone to jail if someone else disrespected you? I’m reading this as a subtle indication that you would’ve been violent against these black women. Please correct me if I’m misreading.
“Frankly, this extended focus on interracial dating as antagonistic to the best interests of Black women and/or Asian men only divides communities already under siege from all manner of serious socio-economic issues.”
I’m not saying I agree or disagree on the “best interests” question, but I’m curious: what criteria do YOU use to differentiate between what is a “serious” issue and what is not?
Scowl
8:35 pm | Aug 10, 2007“Seriously, this idea that members of a particular racial group are socially obligated to date each other has no place in any free multicultural and multiracial country.”
It’s not the idea that people of the same racial group are obligated to date each other. It’s the phenomenon of racial self-hate and how it manifests among minorities in North America. People do put too much emphasis on IR dating, but in many ways it’s the most visible symptom of low racial self-esteem.
It also has to do with ethnocentrism. Now, you might say that ethnocentrism has no place in our society, and I would not completely disagree. However, it is a vital component in developing a healthy sense of self and identity, which is something that all minorities in the US really, really need. It is when you go beyond a certain point that it becomes unhealthy and pathological.
MelaninManson
8:57 pm | Aug 10, 2007“It’s the phenomenon of racial self-hate and how it manifests among minorities in North America. People do put too much emphasis on IR dating, but in many ways it’s the most visible symptom of low racial self-esteem.” - Scowl
IR dating does not imply racial self-hate. Rather, it makes no statements on racial self-hate whatsoever. Calling IR dating a symptom of low racial self-esteem strikes me as illogical, since people could work in the best interests of their race for decades and still date or marry someone outside of their race. Seriously, I’m tired of people who reduce racial affiliation to sharing one’s genitals with someone who shares one’s shade. My Blackness has always been much more layered and nuanced and complicated than who I sleep with.
“Why would YOU have gone to jail if someone else disrespected you? I’m reading this as a subtle indication that you would’ve been violent against these black women. Please correct me if I’m misreading.” - Jaehwan
Yeah, you are seriously misreading. I never indicated violence against anyone. That’s bizarre.
“I’m not saying I agree or disagree on the “best interests” question, but I’m curious: what criteria do YOU use to differentiate between what is a “serious” issue and what is not?” - Jaehwan
I’ll say this: in my opinion, the Black women at Brown profiled in this article do not have a serious complaint. They argue that Black men at Brown should date Black women there exclusively, rejecting all others. That argument attempts to control Black male sexual behavior in a frightening manner, one that parallels the perspectives of Southern Whites during slavery and segregation. Black men are free to date who they choose in this society, and anyone who expresses dismay at that freedom deserves nothing but contempt, regardless of their justifications and/or melanin content.
And no, I don’t have much patience for that stupidity. I don’t consider a political position ’serious’ if it demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from any group of American citizens. Asking Black men or Asian women to date a specific group demands that aforementioned reduction, and should not be tolerated.
CJF
9:40 pm | Aug 10, 2007Do we really need more IR daters thumping their chests in pride that they aren’t dating their own race?
Do we need more IR daters telling me how multicultural they are even though the only race they will date is white?
Do we need more white men who claim to be liberal and into different cultures going to Asia to fornicate with underaged girls for a couple of dollars, then come back and tell their buddies of their awesome sex trips?
Do we need more hapas with their overinflated egos, walking into Chinatown with their white friends and acting like they own the place?
White Only signs were in the South that designated what race went with which water fountain. A lot of AF have white only signs hanging around their panties. Maybe Jim Crow laws are a turn on for them?
CJF
9:42 pm | Aug 10, 2007“IR dating does not imply racial self-hate. Rather, it makes no statements on racial self-hate whatsoever. Calling IR dating a symptom of low racial self-esteem strikes me as illogical, since people could work in the best interests of their race for decades and still date or marry someone outside of their race. Seriously, I’m tired of people who reduce racial affiliation to sharing one’s genitals with someone who shares one’s shade. My Blackness has always been much more layered and nuanced and complicated than who I sleep with.”
Is some woman claiming she doesn’t date her race because her race is abusive and domineering supposedly working for the best interest of her race?
Heli
10:09 pm | Aug 10, 2007On this topic, we Asian men can keep hating IR disparity or we can even the playing field by getting good at PU and landing as many hot white chicks as we can get. I think I am going with the latter.
nskripchun
12:11 am | Aug 11, 2007I think the commonality between the situation of Asian American males and Black females isn’t so much that their counterparts date inter-racially; it’s that so many date inter-racially to the COMPLETE EXCLUSION of people from their own ethnic background.
Like some of the other ‘moderates’ here at the Fighting44s, I don’t feel like inter-racial dating in and of itself is harmful, but there’s something definitely wrong with not speaking out on the following, and quite common situations:
-Black men who refuse to date Black women and ONLY date white women.
-Asian American women who refuse to date Asian American men and ONLY date white men.
Is it possible that every single IR relationship “just happened” by mere personal choice? Maybe.
I think it’s far more likely that it’s evidence that there are larger racist social and cultural forces at work - that whiteness is the standard of beauty; the emasculation and demonization of Asian men; the common notion that Black women aren’t “feminine enough” for a heterosexual relationships; etc.
Scowl
1:25 am | Aug 11, 2007“IR dating does not imply racial self-hate. Rather, it makes no statements on racial self-hate whatsoever.”
By itself, no, it doesn’t.
What suggests the existence of a problem is the wide disparity between the genders when it comes to outdating/outmarriage.
Is responsibility not a reduction in freedom, as well?
Heli
2:23 am | Aug 11, 2007I have been rejected may times by Asian chicks before at clubs, but I always thought that it was because I was not being charming enough or my game was not tight enough, not because I was an Asian male….
blockthebox
2:25 am | Aug 11, 2007MelaninManson: “Frankly, this extended focus on interracial dating as antagonistic to the best interests of Black women and/or Asian men only divides communities already under siege from all manner of serious socio-economic issues. The unceasing IR debate allows bitter single people of color to whine about their loneliness and label that whining ‘activism’. It’s absurd and wasteful energy. A ‘Wall of Shame’ to cajole and berate Black men into dating Black women? That’s so utterly pathetic I’m surprised the people involved allowed themselves to be quoted in the media.”
The only whining here is coming from you. We’ve already heard you make the same tired argument about your right to (what was that lovely expression you used?) commingle your genitals or whatever with whomever you please. I’ve never heard someone feel the need to justify their IR so much from a series of articles. Thank you! We get it!
jaehwan
2:29 am | Aug 11, 2007First, I personally agree with you on the self-hate thing, Melanin. Amy Tan clearly hates Asian men. She doesn’t hate Asian women. So I agree that self-hate may not always be relevant to whom you date. Sometimes it may be, but not always.
I’ll answer your other stuff in reverse order:
You wrote:
“And no, I don’t have much patience for that stupidity. I don’t consider a political position ’serious’ if it demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from any group of American citizens.”
Scowl answered this, but I’ll add on. Reduction in freedom? You’re going to have to come up with a much better argument/definition than that. You see, freedom is subjective. If I demand that schools are integrated, I’m impinging on the freedom that the administrators have to make all white schools. If I demand that a golf club allow black people to join, I’m impinging on the freedom of the board members to restrict their membership.
Every civil rights movement that has ever taken place has impinged on someone’s freedom. By your logic, I could say argue that no political issue is serious. So your definition doesn’t work.
You wrote:
“Yeah, you are seriously misreading. I never indicated violence against anyone. That’s bizarre.”
I hope you don’t think I’m belaboring a point, but you did indicate violence. Why else would someone else disrespect you and the end result be you in jail?
I’m not trying to win the argument, I’m just trying to understand what you are trying to say. I’m pretty sure you were indicating violence, perhaps in a moment of outrage, and I agree with you that those black women shouldn’t have made a Wall of Shame, so outrage (but not violence) is understandable. I don’t care that you indicated violence, but we should try to understand why you have that violence in your outrage.
I think in the case of this article, everyone is wondering why you aren’t empathizing with these black women.
I’ve known white guys who empathize with black women, and I’ve read essays by black men who empathize with them as well. People of all races empathize with them. Why don’t you?
CJF
2:36 am | Aug 11, 2007“And no, I don’t have much patience for that stupidity. I don’t consider a political position ’serious’ if it demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from any group of American citizens. Asking Black men or Asian women to date a specific group demands that aforementioned reduction, and should not be tolerated.”
Reduction of freedom? No no no. You have the freedom to do as you please. Only know that your actions have consequences. When an AF says she only dates whites, that sends the message that AM are incompetent. If you want to claim you are part of an Asian pride movement, your freedom to only date whites is a contradiction to whatever you say in terms of advancement of Asians in America.
What do you think of Ted Haggard, the preacher who spoke against homsexuality while he was visiting a gay prostitute in which he himself was committing oral sex on? He was preaching one thing that he probably did believe in…that gays go to hell…but he was living another.
If you want to preach pride in Asian America, then your life has to be swamped by Asian America. That’s the message, I think, that some are saying here, and it makes sense.
So if your need to sleep with whites is greater than your pride for being Asian, be ready to sacrifice your credibility to the movement.
MelaninManson
3:05 am | Aug 11, 2007“I’m pretty sure you were indicating violence … I don’t care that you indicated violence, but we should try to understand why you have that violence in your outrage.” - Jaehwan
Jaehwan, you can imply what you thought I meant with that statement as much as you like. I’ve already made it clear what I meant.
There’s no need to attempt psychoanalysis, or to imply that a Black man who jokingly references jail time as a result of a controversy automatically indicates violence toward someone.
“I think in the case of this article, everyone is wondering why you aren’t empathizing with these black women. I’ve known white guys who empathize with black women, and I’ve read essays by black men who empathize with them as well. People of all races empathize with them. Why don’t you? - Jaehwan
Those Black women at Brown did not have a reasonable gripe. To empathize with their position, one has to buy the argument that men and women who share the same general racial identity must date each other, at least to the moderate exclusion of all other groups. I don’t find any utility in that position; it reminds me of White slaveowners so hyper-concerned with their racist fears of Black male sexuality that they enacted laws barring interracial coupling with Black men.
Certainly, Jaehwan, those Black women at Brown did not have the power to force their Black male counterparts to date who they told them to, but the ‘Wall of Shame’ must be interpreted as an unorthodox method of behavior modification through intra-communal ostracism. This is the reason Ms. Lyde remarked with disapproval that she’s “trying to talk to the black man, and they’re (mixed-race students) crying about being insulted. That’s the problem - everyone wants to get in on the conversation.”
Bottom line, I think anyone who wants to tell me (and people like me) what to do with my penis does not deserve empathy or respect.
Because of this, I don’t understand Dialectic’s co-signing of the Wall of Shame. If he finds useful parallels between Black women and Asian men within the interracial dating debate, that’s on him, but this sad episode only exposed the utter futility involved when a group of people tries to cajole others into following their pre-planned sexual dictates. Nothing changes, except a community is further divided.
Jaehwan, why do you emphasize with these Black women’s position here? Do you think that Black men owe Black women their personal dating time? If so, why doesn’t that perspective subtract freedom and liberty from Black men?
MelaninManson
3:23 am | Aug 11, 2007“Reduction of freedom? No no no. You have the freedom to do as you please. Only know that your actions have consequences. When an AF says she only dates whites, that sends the message that AM are incompetent. If you want to claim you are part of an Asian pride movement, your freedom to only date whites is a contradiction to whatever you say in terms of advancement of Asians in America.” - CJF
Honestly, when a AF, or anyone for that matter, says she ‘only dates Whites’, that sends the message that that particular person only dates Whites. Any other commentary one finds with that AF’s preference imposes one’s personal biases on that AF’s free choice.
Certainly, when an Asian female says she’ll only date White men (a position I’ve never heard personally, by the way) she also implies that she won’t date Black and Latino men. Are Black and Latino men supposed to feel insulted or believe that their masculinity has been threatened? Of course not.
No person of color lives with an obligation to date within their respective race at any time in their lives.
Further, I have no understanding of Asian pride movements at all, and cannot speak on them. I just hope that useful, productive political members of Asian America have not been ejected from the race over something as trivial as their dating choices. The Rev. Ted Haggard controversy does not offer a useful parallel here, because Haggard used his preeminence in the evangelical movement to condemn homosexuals, and encouraged negative social sanctions against them.
I’ve never met an Asian race activist who condemned anyone. Those folk have always focused on empowering fellow Asians to understand their history, cultures, and the political issues that beset the race. Without that condemnation, I don’t see where the so-called hypocrisy parallel emerges.
CJF
4:27 am | Aug 11, 2007You’ve never heard of an Asian Race Advocate that condemned anybody?
Read celebrated “advocate” Amy Tan’s works and you will see her condemning Asian men as evil domineering people who control you with their evil Asian culture.
And you’ve never heard of Asian girls only dating whites? Where have you been. I know plenty of those types. They are around. They only date white men. White only. You might as well put up Jim Crow signs that read White Only above their vulva just like those signs were above water fountains in the South.
The Haggard incident is totally relavent to this. A major issue with AA’s is masculinity of the men. AA men are perceieved by western culture as being weak, having small penises and incapable of romance.
If you are an Asian Advocate female, and your husband is white, and you are fighting to abolish the stereotype of Asian men being sexually incompetent a scenario can be like this:
Asian Female: The portrayal of Asian males in media as asexual robotic beings is a disgrace.
White Male: If Asian men are so sexual, then why do Asian Females like yourself refuse to date them?
Asian Female: It is my right to marry who I please. I choose to date white men.
White Male: Why? Because Asian Men have small penises?
Asian Female: No. That’s not true. The studies show…
White Male: Well apparently the studies weren’t enough to convince you to date them…
When you are an advocate for AA rights, you have to live it. If you don’t, you are nothing but a walking hypocritical target that weakens the movement immensely, and you support the very notions that you are fighting against.
off topic: Jesus, I have too much free time for my 3 week vacation :-D
Scowl
1:40 pm | Aug 11, 2007“To empathize with their position, one has to buy the argument that men and women who share the same general racial identity must date each other, at least to the moderate exclusion of all other groups. I don’t find any utility in that position; it reminds me of White slaveowners so hyper-concerned with their racist fears of Black male sexuality that they enacted laws barring interracial coupling with Black men.”
Is it really a fair comparison to put those Black women at Brown on par with White slave owners in the slavery era?
Would you say that preferring to date your own “race” is racist, and that ethnocentrism has no place in our society today? The reason I ask is that I believe this is a fundamental difference that must be resolved (if it can be) before any progress can be made in any further discussion. I really think that the IR issue boils down to this.
DONKEY
3:59 pm | Aug 11, 2007I disagree with the person quoted in the article that said:
“It’s indirectly expressing disapproval for their existence,”
it’s just plain wrong.
Also it doesn’t seem like the point of the “Wall of Shame” was to intimidate them into dating black women. Obviously that would never work. It called attention to the disparity made people question why it exists. The author of this article seems to understand that.
Iron Mike
9:34 pm | Aug 11, 2007“Asian Female: The portrayal of Asian males in media as asexual robotic beings is a disgrace.
White Male: If Asian men are so sexual, then why do Asian Females like yourself refuse to date them?
Asian Female: It is my right to marry who I please. I choose to date white men.
White Male: Why? Because Asian Men have small penises?
Asian Female: No. That’s not true. The studies show…
White Male: Well apparently the studies weren’t enough to convince you to date them…”
I know “you can’t help who you fall in love with,” sounds trite, but let’s face it- it’s true. Just dating a white man does not necessarily preclude one from thinking that Asian men are equal. The hypothetical woman in your situation could have dated Asian men in the past, or could be willing to date Asian men in the future. A problem only arises if she outright refuses to date an Asian man- then she is a hypocrite. And I don’t doubt those type of women do exist, but based on my experiences they’re a minority who are looked down upon as narrow-minded by Asian males and females alike. Sure you may find a lot of Asian women who incidentally date white men, but I don’t think you’ll find many who exclusively date white men (or at the very least, admit that to other Asians).
Dialectic
9:38 pm | Aug 11, 2007“White Only signs were in the South that designated what race went with which water fountain. A lot of AF have white only signs hanging around their panties. Maybe Jim Crow laws are a turn on for them?”
Haha, CJF, I gotta say, that was pretty witty. See my latest piece for yet another clarification of what I’m actually saying, and also some general thoughts on the hypocrisy of the American advocates’ obsession with freedom.
jaehwan
3:09 am | Aug 12, 2007“Jaehwan, you can imply what you thought I meant with that statement as much as you like. I’ve already made it clear what I meant.
There’s no need to attempt psychoanalysis, or to imply that a Black man who jokingly references jail time as a result of a controversy automatically indicates violence toward someone.”
Haha. Melanin, no offense, but I KNEW you’d pull the race card out on me sooner rather than later. The fact that you mention your blackness ad nauseum clued me in on what was to come. My question had nothing to do with you being black. It was logical: Why would you end up in jail if someone else harassed you? Logically speaking, the only logical answer is that you were implying that you would use violence.
You say you made it clear what you really meant, but you never answered it–why would you end up in jail? For the umpteenth time, WHY WOULD YOU END UP IN JAIL? (Will you finally answer this?)
Haha. You seem like a nice enough guy, so I’m going to let you in on a little secret. I’m going to tell you why highly intelligent people get frustrated when they talk to you. I’m going to tell you something that you probably don’t realize, but something that you’ll understand if you stop to think about it.
The secret is this: you often don’t use logic when you write; you use emotion. It’s like answering a question with a rant. It tells us how you feel, but it doesn’t do any good in answering the question or bringing us closer to the truth. Again I’m saying this in a constructive way, so no offense intended.
Let me give you some examples:
1. Your status as a black man dating an Asian woman: blockthebox called you out because you’ve mentioned your blackness or your girlfriend’s Asianness more times than most of us care to count. What does this have to do with the rational arguments that people are putting forth on the topic? Most people hate ad hominem attacks because they focus on the person rather than the argument. You do the same thing but in the other direction; you focus on YOU rather than on the argument. If your arguments are sound, it shouldn’t matter who is making them. Your personal life is irrelevant. The fact that you constantly bring up your status as a black man dating an Asian woman in order to argue a point seems to indicate to me that you THINK it’s a deductive or inductive proof of some sort. It isn’t. It’s irrelevant.
2. Freedom: You say that “I don’t consider a political position ’serious’ if it demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from any group of American citizens.”
Logically, the first thing that occurs to the rational being is to come up with an example. And the first example that comes up is civil rights. And we see in civil rights that ALL change demands that someone give up certain freedoms.
I saw this contradiction immediately. Scowl saw it. CJF saw it. And we all saw it instantly. It’s surprising that you didn’t see it. And it’s surprising that you still have not answered it. It’s not a valid statement because it can’t be applied to any situation EVER. When can you complain about any issue without curtailing the freedom of at least one group or person?
So yet AGAIN, we have another unanswered question: “what criteria do YOU use to differentiate between what is a “serious” issue and what is not?”
3. “To empathize with their position, one has to buy the argument that men and women who share the same general racial identity must date each other, at least to the moderate exclusion of all other groups.”
It necessitates no such thing. Do black men and black women have equal social capital in this country? I say no, Ellis Cose says no, Terry Macmillan says no, and most people agree…no. Actually, you’re the only person I’ve ever met who seems to imply that they do. You don’t have to agree with their actions (I don’t) or believe in a cross gender obligation to date (I don’t) in order to empathize with their position (I do.).
So to be fair, let me answer your questions:
1. “why do you emphasize with these Black women’s position here?” Because they don’t have the social capital that black men have, and they’re angry about inequality.
2. “Do you think that Black men owe Black women their personal dating time?” No, but an understanding black man will empathize with their plight.
3. “If so, why doesn’t that perspective subtract freedom and liberty from Black men?” I don’t think black men have to date black women, nor do I think Asian women have to date Asian men.
Does this clarify?
Dialectic
3:55 pm | Aug 12, 2007Just skimmed a bit of this thread. Wow, Melanin, here I was thinking you’d contribute to a reasoned discussion, but damn, you imply that you would’ve beaten the shit out of these Black women for what they did?
I mean, I know you were probably just being rhetorical, and you probably wouldn’t have actually beaten them, but still, just to imply it to get your emotions across? Damn man, you think your Asian feminist girlfriend would’ve been as polite and reasonable as we’ve been to you, to an Asian male who implied something like that to her?
But something tells me you guys aren’t gonna break up over a little comment like that. So where does that leave the Black women? Can they trust you? Where does that leave Asian males? Can we trust someone who tolerates a boyfriend who implies violence toward women when they’re trying to express their sense of rejection and betrayal?
But from what I’ve seen already, you guys are cool with people getting rejected and feeling betrayed, as long as it’s not you.
Hey, irrational self-centered double-standards, that seems to be what the advocates are all about these days.
Hope your girl’s reading this. Hell, hope your mom’s reading this.
MelaninManson
9:28 pm | Aug 12, 2007“Do black men and black women have equal social capital in this country? I say no, Ellis Cose says no, Terry Macmillan says no, and most people agree…no. Actually, you’re the only person I’ve ever met who seems to imply that they do. You don’t have to agree with their actions (I don’t) or believe in a cross gender obligation to date (I don’t) in order to empathize with their position (I do.).” - Jaehwan
So let me understand you Jaehwan - you remind us that you believe that Black women do not share equal social capital in America as justification for your support of a group of Black women who lampoon and criticize the personal choices of a subset of Black men. Further, you remind us of the ‘plight’ of Black women given this lack of social capital as justification for a political position that (when applied to Asian American identity politics) generally degrades the social capital of Asian American women, since this article has been used by Dialectic to justify the idea that Asian American female activists should not date interracially if they choose.
Have we reached color-coded feminism in this discussion Jaehwan? You champion young Black female self-expression, even when used to ostracize young Black men, while this episode was used by Dialectic to illustrate the utility of social ostracism when attacking Asian women activists who date interracially. Black woman, say whatever you like, no matter how hurtful or vitriolic; Asian woman, remain silent and politically submissive unless chaperoned by an Asian man? That makes no sense.
Further, no matter Black women’s social capital (which should be equal to all other members in this society, not just Black men) they do not have the right to impede Black men’s free association with intra-communal social ostracism. Throughout Dialectic’s piece, he outlined the communal safeguards against the general personal freedom Americans enjoy, and we should all remember that within racial minority circles, the perceived slights and indignities portions of our communities face do not allow those factions the right to hamper the freedoms other members of our communities enjoy.
No matter the supposed interracial dating disparity within the Asian American community, I don’t agree with Asian American men who tell Asian American women that they can’t date who they choose.
No matter the supposed difficulties inherent in finding a upwardly mobile, pleasant and professional ‘good Black man’, I don’t agree with Black women who tell Black men that they can’t date who they choose.
MelaninManson
9:38 pm | Aug 12, 2007“Is it really a fair comparison to put those Black women at Brown on par with White slave owners in the slavery era? Would you say that preferring to date your own “race” is racist, and that ethnocentrism has no place in our society today?” - Scowl
I think it’s a totally fair comparison, given the parameters I outlined earlier. Preferring to date any one race in particular illustrates questionable interpersonal politics to me, because that action prefers group identification over individual self-worth, in my opinion. I realize people disagree, but to me, the person who desperately seeks someone with a predetermined racial and sexual makeup openly announces how little they care for all the individual particulars that make a person worthwhile.
Outside of that, I think ethnocentrism has outlived whatever usefulness others found in it long ago in American identity politics.
“Haha. Melanin, no offense, but I KNEW you’d pull the race card out on me sooner rather than later. The fact that you mention your blackness ad nauseum clued me in on what was to come. My question had nothing to do with you being black. It was logical: Why would you end up in jail if someone else harassed you? Logically speaking, the only logical answer is that you were implying that you would use violence.” - Jaehwan
Sometimes when Black men challenge harassment on college campuses police are called in. It happens. None of that implies that anyone has been violent towards anyone else. The simple act of Black men disagreeing with others in public makes people uneasy. Many contentious marathon meetings involving the Black community at Cornell (like the meeting referenced in the article) enjoyed uniformed police protection no one requested, just because the mere presence of a few hundred Black people in one place made the school jumpy. It happens.
The racist justifications aside, many Black male college students live with the threat of unfair and unjust police scrutiny over nonexistent infractions on a daily basis. I don’t expect everyone to know that Jaehwan, but no one has to make and/or believe the patently racist assumption that a Black man in jail has been violent towards someone.
Further, using your mistaken impression of my response to this article to overlook my opinions in this thread only displays how little you value a differing opinion.
MelaninManson
9:40 pm | Aug 12, 2007“Your status as a black man dating an Asian woman: blockthebox called you out because you’ve mentioned your blackness or your girlfriend’s Asianness more times than most of us care to count.” - Jaehwan
I’ve mentioned our racial labels on this site only once, in another thread, because you asked Jenn to when you encouraged us to discuss Dialectic’s writing in this space:
“At August 9th, 2007 at 4:09 pm, jaehwan said: … Jenn, Why not post on his blog as well? (As I’ve mentioned before, he’s posted here.) I think your question could be so easy to post. Just say, “I’m an Asian woman dating a black guy, and I am an advocate. I run reappropriate. Do I have a right to be an advocate?” (http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=804#comment-58027)
“Logically, the first thing that occurs to the rational being is to come up with an example. And the first example that comes up is civil rights. And we see in civil rights that ALL change demands that someone give up certain freedoms.” - Jaehwan
You’re speaking of the freedom to discriminate, disenfranchise, and exclude others, correct? Well, since discrimination, disenfranchisement, and exclusion all reduce the range of meaningful choices of others (read: demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from a group of American citizens) I tend not to recognize those freedoms as useful for our society.
Maybe you do. But your point has been made, semantic and trite though it was.
Seriously, if anyone wants to force people to answer certain questions, can someone encourage Dialectic to respond to the questions about Ron Takaki and Helen Zia and Bruce Lee that Jenn posed earlier? If race activists shouldn’t date interracially, doesn’t the Asian American community have to disavow many of it’s most effective activists?
CJF
11:10 pm | Aug 12, 2007I know “you can’t help who you fall in love with,” sounds trite, but let’s face it- it’s true. Just dating a white man does not necessarily preclude one from thinking that Asian men are equal. The hypothetical woman in your situation could have dated Asian men in the past, or could be willing to date Asian men in the future. A problem only arises if she outright refuses to date an Asian man- then she is a hypocrite. And I don’t doubt those type of women do exist, but based on my experiences they’re a minority who are looked down upon as narrow-minded by Asian males and females alike. Sure you may find a lot of Asian women who incidentally date white men, but I don’t think you’ll find many who exclusively date white men (or at the very least, admit that to other Asians).
Iron Mike
If these women “just happened” to fall in love with whites, then why don’t we see more East AF dating Hispanics, blacks, indians or arabs?
I went to San Francisco the other day, and for every 20 AF/WM I saw, I saw 1 AF/BM. And to be honest, I thought it was cool seeing an asian and black union.
The demographics of San Francisco are. For every 1 black man in SF there is about 6 white men. There are probably 1 hispanic male for every 4 white male.
It has nothing to do with interracial dating. Interracial dating is dating all races. These AF are dating the WHITE race and are empowering WHITENING America if anything rather than mixing America.
CJF
11:32 pm | Aug 12, 2007“Have we reached color-coded feminism in this discussion Jaehwan? You champion young Black female self-expression, even when used to ostracize young Black men, while this episode was used by Dialectic to illustrate the utility of social ostracism when attacking Asian women activists who date interracially. Black woman, say whatever you like, no matter how hurtful or vitriolic; Asian woman, remain silent and politically submissive unless chaperoned by an Asian man? That makes no sense.”
But you totally miss a huge point Melanin. Black feminism is about feeling proud about yourself. About saying, “I’m black. I’m skinny or I’m fat. I’m smart or I’m dumb. But no matter what the fuck happens, I’m always proud that I’m female and black.”
Black women, while being proud of being female, love their race. They love black men. You hear them saying the greatest things about black men.
Amy Tan Feminism is about feeling insecure. About feeling insecure of her little titties than white girls. Or of feeling insecure about her bigger titties than Asian girls from Asia. Of feeling insecure about her strict parents. Of feeling restricted to majoring in something useful besides a bullshit degree in Beethovenism (I made it up calm down ;) ). Of being grateful of western culture. Of being grateful of your white boyfriend freeing you from the shackles of Asian culture.
Ohh white man, thank you for freeing me. Thank you for I do not have to deal with my parents. Thank you for I do not have to have the abusive Asian BF that I’m labeling abusive because I read an AMy Tan book. Thank you White Man for I don’t have to use chopsticks and can now use a fork. Thank you white man for now I have to take herpes medications because he cheated on another Asian girl while with me…but oh white man am I still thankful (last part was for chuckles)
That is Amy Tan Asian Feminism. And that is the feminism being taught to Asian girls in schools today and by peers and by the media. That is the Asian Feminism that makes Asian girls more likely to date whites than any other minority. That is the Asian Feminism that causes the AF/WM phenomenon that EVERYBODY is noticing.
jaehwan
1:09 am | Aug 13, 2007“Sometimes when Black men challenge harassment on college campuses police are called in. It happens. None of that implies that anyone has been violent towards anyone else. The simple act of Black men disagreeing with others in public makes people uneasy. Many contentious marathon meetings involving the Black community at Cornell (like the meeting referenced in the article) enjoyed uniformed police protection no one requested, just because the mere presence of a few hundred Black people in one place made the school jumpy. It happens.
The racist justifications aside, many Black male college students live with the threat of unfair and unjust police scrutiny over nonexistent infractions on a daily basis. I don’t expect everyone to know that Jaehwan, but no one has to make and/or believe the patently racist assumption that a Black man in jail has been violent towards someone. ”
Okay, but that’s irrelevant. You’re on a MESSAGE board. Why would anyone here get uneasy? People can’t even see you. If you think that people view you as a threat on this board and feel like calling the police, you’re paranoid. I would’ve called out your joking threat of violence whether you were black, white, or Asian. In fact, the only reason why everyone knows you’re black is because you’re constantly reminding us.
Melanin, like I said, you sound like a nice guy, but I think this is a cop-out. I know lots of black people who are perfectly rational, don’t threaten women with violence–even in jest–and have perfectly normal conversations without bringing out the race card.
And you still haven’t answered the question of why you would be in jail. If it were really were not a reference to violence, I think you would’ve told me (and everyone else) what you were trying to say.
“Further, you remind us of the ‘plight’ of Black women given this lack of social capital as justification for a political position that (when applied to Asian American identity politics) generally degrades the social capital of Asian American women, since this article has been used by Dialectic to justify the idea that Asian American female activists should not date interracially if they choose.”
Okay, revisiting the idea of logic again. Take things one at a time: Nuclear science can create bombs that kill millions of people at a time. But it can also create clean power. Just because I might be against nuclear bombs, doesn’t mean I’m against nuclear power. X is bad “when applied” to Y has no meaning. We’re just talking about X, not Y. And I’m saying that I empathize with black women, not that I agree with what they did with their Wall of Shame.
“At August 9th, 2007 at 4:09 pm, jaehwan said: … Jenn, Why not post on his blog as well? (As I’ve mentioned before, he’s posted here.) I think your question could be so easy to post. Just say, “I’m an Asian woman dating a black guy, and I am an advocate. I run reappropriate. Do I have a right to be an advocate?” (http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=804#comment-58027)”
Well, this makes perfect sense since Jenn is exactly what we’re talking about. We’re talking about racial activists who intermarry, specifically Asian women. What better way to discuss it than to bring out a real life example?
On the other hand, we’re not talking about black men dating Asian women and whether they face discrimination, and we’re not talking about YOU, unless we’re discussing your arguments. Your constant rehashing of who you are isn’t relevant. Say it once, but after you introduce yourself, stick with the logical approach because your personal story is off topic.
“You’re speaking of the freedom to discriminate, disenfranchise, and exclude others, correct? Well, since discrimination, disenfranchisement, and exclusion all reduce the range of meaningful choices of others (read: demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from a group of American citizens) I tend not to recognize those freedoms as useful for our society.”
Where are you getting this? Since we’re talking about black women’s feelings, and since I specifically said that I didn’t approve of their Wall of Shame, how does a black woman voicing her feelings about alienation “discriminate, disenfranchise, and exclude” you? If a black woman saying “I was disrespected by black men” is enough to make you feel disenfranchised, then you just need to develop a thicker skin.
I understand that your experience has been colored by your status as a black man (you’ve made this quite clear), and I feel bad that you’ve had to go through whatever it was that you did, and I’m not going to say that I’ve been there, because I haven’t. But your feelings of paranoia are irrational, not just against white society, but against Asians and black women as well. Ultimately if you’re going to engage in dialogue, you need to hear other people’s perspectives outside of your own.
minbo
1:25 am | Aug 13, 2007MelaninManson, unfortunately I think that you are getting dogpiled.
I respect that you may have a good relationship with your gf of 8 years and that it is not in any way disrespectful of any ethnicity or culture. I also have to say that your quote “I think I would have gone to jail had someone in Cornell attempted such blatant disrespect towards me just because of my personal life.” read by any reasonable person regardless of ethnicity or sex would more than likely interpret it to be an indication that you were (jokingly or not) going to break the law in a blatant fashion that would land you in jail. NOT call a marathon meeting involving the Black community on a college campus that enjoyed unwarranted uniformed police protection (which did not involve anyone going to jail). Break the law with simple vandalism, harassment, violence, or soemthing else I won’t speculate, but certainly break the law blatantly.
I also think that you are applying the arguments too closely to your personal situation to see that there may be a logic that comes to the conclusion that an Asian advocate in an IR may not be capable to truly represent and advocate for some Asian males. It is not that your logic is wrong. It is not that their logic is right. The issue is that there is an underlying supposition that you disagree upon the truth of.
Your argument appears top me that that freedom of personal choice in personal life is paramount.
Their argument is that in order for an Asian advocate to be able to eequally represent all members of the community and be beyond even a shadow of reprehension, they need to strive to maintain a standard of personal conduct beyond that of a private citizen.
Both stances are idealistic, representing different goal. In practice in the “real world”, “real people” will not be able to be true to either arguments and thus will fall into some pragmatic middle. Personally, I’d just be happy if I could find ANY Asian advocate who is effective enough to rally the majority of the Asian population in America behind them to affect real measurable change within my lifetime that I wouldn’t care if they were in an IR, but I do have to say that Dialectic’s stance, while idealistic is not inherently wrong. I also have to say that I know enough AM to realize that on a pragmatic level, right or wrong, an Asian person (male or female) in an IR will cause enough discord that an Asian person in an IR in the current political and social climate will never be able to effectively represent the majority of Asian people in America.
Lastly, Dialetic is not saying that Asian men can or should dictate who Asian women can have a relationship with. He is saying that he won’t support an Asian advocate for Asian people on a whole if (male or female) if they an IR, or if they are not Asian, he thinks that they make fine private citizens. He is not forcing them to NOT be in an IR, and hopefully whatever Asian person who is in an IR and an advocate is not trying to force him to rally around and support them. Freedom all around for everyone and nobody is entirely happy. You don’t agree with him, he doesn’t agree with you, nobody wins. Anyone can be an Asian advocate in an IR, but don’t look to Dialectic to support them. And he truly believes (with some cause) that he is a moderate position.
CJF
1:35 am | Aug 13, 2007BTW Melanin, I know of Black guys, (don’t bite me for it. you’re the one bringing in your personal race and life) who complain of Asian women who only date white girls.
So what do you think of those guys? It’s not only Asian guys that see this, but people who are black like yourself.
What if your girlfriend was a class whore like those AF who only date WM. She says she never dates blacks. Etc. Is she still an interracial dater?
minbo
1:36 am | Aug 13, 2007One last comment, I know that you are applying Dialectics argument directly to AM controlling who AF can date because of the specific circumstance of your relationship and where this current discussion arose, but please believe me, this has been discussed in a couple threads in the past few years on this site well before this was picked up by any other site, and he applies his no IR for Asian advocates to both AM and AF equally. He is not just applying it to AF.
MelaninManson
10:34 am | Aug 13, 2007“Black feminism is about feeling proud about yourself. … Black women, while being proud of being female, love their race. They love black men. You hear them saying the greatest things about black men. Amy Tan Feminism is about feeling insecure.” - CJF
I disagree. I think Black feminism and Asian feminism are not really the point in this discussion. Black feminism concerns maintaining drive and empowerment among Black women so they can secure their particular interests in this society, similar to Asian American feminism’s impact on Asian American women.
The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame” did not apply a feminist solution to their gripes. Rather, they only served to further divide their community by focusing on their concocted anger about decisions that never concerned them.
Further, this entire debate emerges because of people’s insecurities. I find a person insecure when they pretend that an interracial relationship in which they aren’t personally involved somehow comments on their demographic’s utility as viable dating partners. The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame’ debacle felt personally insulted when Black men dated non-Blacks, and thought the choices those Black men made somehow commented on the desirability of Black women in general. That’s pretty insecure.
Meanwhile, without commenting on Amy Tan, I think it’s safe to say that Asian American feminism features a broader, more socially responsible perspective on Asian American female empowerment than your example suggests. Honestly, I wonder if a major gripe here is that Asian American women today (like Black women since the 1970’s) point out sexism within their cultures and force Asian American men to question themselves.
From the 1980’s through today, Black male academics flatly rejected the notion that cultural Black male sexism caused serious issues for Black women, and I wonder if an eerie parallel hasn’t emerged among Asian American men today. Men of color have to realize that we often benefit from patriarchy and exude misogyny as a part of our daily lives, and that as a consequence, women in our racial communities don’t always have the freedom to make meaningful choices about their lives.
I’m not saying that men of color have to change themselves in any sense, just that we owe it to ourselves to recognize the consequences of our actions. Once we do, we’re in a much stronger position when women in our community put forth irrational demands, like the Black women at Brown posed as they questioned the dating practices of some of their Black male counterparts.
No matter how much sexism and racism has affected a Black woman’s life, I’m under no obligation to date her.
MelaninManson
11:41 am | Aug 13, 2007“The issue is that there is an underlying supposition that you disagree upon the truth of. … I also have to say that I know enough AM to realize that on a pragmatic level, right or wrong, an Asian person (male or female) in an IR will cause enough discord that an Asian person in an IR in the current political and social climate will never be able to effectively represent the majority of Asian people in America.” - Minbo
Minbo, I think your distillation of the basic differences here has merit. Certainly it seems I’ve argued at cross-purposes with most other commenters here. I find Dialectic’s position fundamentally flawed, unworkable, and wrong. For me, the Bayard Rustin example aerates Dialectic’s arguments, as oppressed minority communities can ill afford to reject effective activists because of inconsequential disagreements over the personal lives of those activists.
Given Dialectic’s position, Asian Americans should reject the Helen Zias and Ron Takakis of Asian America, for failing to sexually exude some superficial racial unity. It’s absurd. Dialectic’s argument falls apart on this point, so he’s avoided dealing with it directly.
However Minbo, I don’t disagree with your point that many Asian men today may be unwilling to support an Asian race activist in an interracial relationship. I believe this happens because racial minority communities persist through conservative cultural groupthink, so activists within racial minority communities who date interracially simply need the opportunity to let their utility be judged by what they contribute alone.
We all have biases, and many of those biases aren’t rational, so we should create activist institutions that operate without concern for our biases. Finding fault with a race activist who dates interracially remains an irrational bias that should not be allowed to impede the activism of dedicated race advocates with the best interests of the race at heart.
Given the sexual politics of the Asian American community, I think Dialectic’s position would be applied to Asian American women far more than their male counterparts, because of the sexist vitriol that these conversations usually engender. Thankfully, these recent conversations have been relatively free of such talk.
Dialectic’s argument offers a nuanced version of the same anti-interracial relationships argument heard for decades. I have no doubt that Dialectic believes his position is a moderate one; true believers usually do.
Edwin
12:59 pm | Aug 13, 2007MelaninMason,
You keep bringing up your PENIS, GENITALS, and freedom to copulate into this debate. We get it already but it’s not about that.
People have the freedom of choice to sleep indiscriminately with hundreds of people without protection but it’s morally reprehensible. Just like no one is saying that AFs cannot exclude AMs from their dating pool but to reject one’s own kind is also morally reprehensible and brings legitimate concerns of self-hate into question. In that sense, AMs have every right to criticize them for this. It’s our RIGHT to do so too.
This isn’t about who is having sex with whom but about where the heart lies.
CJF
2:06 pm | Aug 13, 2007“Further, this entire debate emerges because of people’s insecurities. I find a person insecure when they pretend that an interracial relationship in which they aren’t personally involved somehow comments on their demographic’s utility as viable dating partners. The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame’ debacle felt personally insulted when Black men dated non-Blacks, and thought the choices those Black men made somehow commented on the desirability of Black women in general. That’s pretty insecure.”
What message does it send to America when black men refuse to date black women and only date white women? What message does it say blacks think of their own women?
It says that the women of their race are so incompetent that they would outright refuse to date their own race. It sends a message and makes your people look divided.
So what happens when you have somebody like Seal, who is with a white girl and I doubt he’s ever been with a black girl (well, lets assume for the sake of discourse)…lets imagine him trying to rally a group of black people. Half are black men. Half are black women. He starts saying, WE SHOULD BE PROUD OF OUR RACE…yet he openly avoids dating his race and continuing on his race by mating with a black woman.
See the irony? It’s his right to go white. But once you go white, you have little to say in the realm of Black or Asian activism because you yourself are denying your own people of the most basic thing of reproduction, and saying that a white or white man are more suit to reproduce.
“Meanwhile, without commenting on Amy Tan, I think it’s safe to say that Asian American feminism features a broader, more socially responsible perspective on Asian American female empowerment than your example suggests. Honestly, I wonder if a major gripe here is that Asian American women today (like Black women since the 1970’s) point out sexism within their cultures and force Asian American men to question themselves. ”
Sexism within our own cultures?
I know for Asian cultures, it is more often the woman who is head of the household. It is the woman who is the boss. Actually, for about 80% of the Asian moms I know, they control the families moreso than the men do. And the same thing happens when they go marry a white guy is they take control of the family and make most major decisions.
What we argue on this site is there is a huge MYTH created that Asian men are somehow “cold” and “abusive” and “violent” towards their wives. If you are trying to suggest that, then back up your notion with statistical evidence.
If you don’t provide statistics, than I don’t know how to put this kindly, but you gotta shut up. You’re perpetuating a myth without base on a site that is trying to kill these myths and I recommend you go to an Amy Tan site if you really believe the myths are true.
“rom the 1980’s through today, Black male academics flatly rejected the notion that cultural Black male sexism caused serious issues for Black women, and I wonder if an eerie parallel hasn’t emerged among Asian American men today. Men of color have to realize that we often benefit from patriarchy and exude misogyny as a part of our daily lives, and that as a consequence, women in our racial communities don’t always have the freedom to make meaningful choices about their lives.”
This post really makes me question whether you are even black. Again, backup your statements. Minority Women don’t have meaningful choices about their lives? Again, STATISTICS.
And again, you are also implying that because minority women are bad, that white women or white men are a better alternative. Your implication is white men and women aren’t abusive. White men and women aren’t domineering or violent. White men and women are perfect angels.
Your whole post right there was filled with a lot of perpetuated myths that you didn’t back up at all with any factual evidence. And your whole post was to bluntly put it a post to kiss the ass cheeks of the white race.
Dialectic
5:11 pm | Aug 13, 2007Just skimmed some more.
I’m not sure if I would describe my stance, minbo, as “idealistic.” I’m simply saying that advocates who disagree with my position are dismissing a moral responsibility by attacking my position as immoral, which it is not.
My next piece clarifies the point further, and also addresses the American obsession with freedom (for me and not you!).
Senkeh
4:26 pm | Aug 16, 2007“The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame” did not apply a feminist solution to their gripes. Rather, they only served to further divide their community by focusing on their concocted anger about decisions that never concerned them.
Further, this entire debate emerges because of people’s insecurities. I find a person insecure when they pretend that an interracial relationship in which they aren’t personally involved somehow comments on their demographic’s utility as viable dating partners. The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame’ debacle felt personally insulted when Black men dated non-Blacks, and thought the choices those Black men made somehow commented on the desirability of Black women in general. That’s pretty insecure.” –MelaninManson
Before I start, I believe we all agree that the “Wall of Shame” tactic was inappropriate; however, the REASON for doing it was valid and therefore the main point here.
First, I have to agree with the Asian gentlemen here. When whole groups of people are being passed over, it actually does concern them. Of course, not on an individual coupe-to-couple basis; but when the overwhelming numbers of black men and Asian women are latching onto whites are baffling social scientists (and dating services) across America, then black women and Asian men have every right to voice criticism.
I don’t think insecurity is the problem here–at least not on the part of black women and Asian men. Some of you have read a post of mine in which I explained that black women score the highest on self-esteem tests, compared to other women. We know we’re just as desirable as all other women. This is precisely the reason why black women feel insulted when time and again men of their own race pass them over for white women. Or when other men are hesitant to date them because their own men don’t seem to want them, and because black men seeking white women have been known to openly badmouth black women in order to score more points. If several black men want to date white women, and don’t think that it’s anyone else’s business, that’s fine…but they’re actually making our business when they start blasting black women in front of their white girlfriend and all her friends and relatives. In doing so, they hinder our chances of finding romance with men of other races, and getting on with our own lives. Same with Asian men; it doesn’t help when an Asian girl is sitting with a bunch of whites and blasting men of her own race just to show her boyfriend how loyal she is to him.
Americans have grown fond of the saying, “Well, there’s always going to be stupid people” as a response to anyone who makes a valid complaint about society. This saying implies that we are talking about one village idiot here and another there, but all it really does is try to hide from the fact that we are talking about whole sections of the population–and that is a major complaint of black women and Asian men.
I personally have no special affinity for black men, but every black man in this country that I have ever met or gotten to know (including my own father, folks) has treated white women with more kindness, respect and appreciation than they have me–even when I’m standing right there with my white girlfriends (and even when I have more class and education). So I can understand the damage that it does to my fellow black women who experience the same thing daily and have been for years.
The same with Asian men. Asian men don’t actually think of themselves as being inferior to any other men, but they have every right feel insulted when they are presumed as such by everyone else. Most Asian men are given just one glance over right before they are permanently dismissed by women. I have asked several white (and Asian) girls why they ignored the appreciative glance of an Asian man without even so much as learning his name, and they’ve never really had a valid reason for it. And the ones that did try to give me reasons gave me the all stereotypical ones: “I hear they’re cruel, I hear they’re stingy, I hear they’re unaffectionate.” Another horrifying one I’ve often heard is, “Well, it’s just that Asian men are generally considered unattractive.” This implies that the girl would consider a nice, normal Asian guy if society just wasn’t breathing down her neck. Same with black women; I read Vahz’s post about how he found black women to be perfectly wonderful, but that he feared the stigma far too much to actually marry one.
Now, what Dialectic and others are stressing is that what adds insult to injury is when an Asian women is sympathizing with them on these issues, but is married to or dating a white guy. It’s no different from when a black man sympathizes with black women (and I have met several of these) but then shoves us aside the minute a white girl walks by, or acts like he doesn’t know us when he’s chatting up a white woman. Such people are in no position to preach racial pride and unity. I read on mixedmedia.org how an Asian woman married to a white guy put up a website displaying and praising sexy Asian men, assuring them that Asian women found them desirable. She thought she was paying them SUCH a great compliment. You could practically hear her patting herself on her back.
As for feminism, I’m a black feminist and sociologist and I would say that the modern black feminist movement focuses on self-reliance and sisterhood, so that in time we can get rid of that “needing a strong black man” nonsense which has caused us a LOT of trouble. However, I have read four (and own three) of Amy Tan’s books and I definitely have to agree with the Asian gentlemen here; that woman provides NO young, strong, responsible, respectable, sexy and overall wonderful Asian male characters–ever. The main female protagonist always finds solace in the arms of a white guy, she never masters her native tongue (nor tries to), she makes no real effort to learn about her family history (she’s constantly running from it), she speaks of her relatives with mistrust and ridicule, and she’s always rolling her eyes at her own culture. If that’s not bad enough, Amy Tan has been placed as some great messianic feminist figure, when in fact should be held at least partially responsible for inspiring Asian American women of all ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds to marry outside their race at all costs (and then, as Dialectic once wrote, be disappointed when their babies don’t have blue eyes).
evil_FUX
3:55 am | Aug 17, 2007^Nice post Senkeh.
JadeDragon
11:16 am | Aug 17, 2007Great post, Senkeh. =) We enjoy hearing your perpective on issues (as evidenced by the black dating thread), and I’m glad that you’ve joined us.
Dialectic
11:27 am | Aug 17, 2007Thanks for your comments, Senkeh.
The site you mention was put up a few years ago, I think shortly after we went up. While the founder certainly had good intentions, at least on some level, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that some Asian men would have found her to be pretty condescending and questioned her motives.
For those who might not have heard of it, Toni Morrison’s The Bluest Eye is, incidentally, an excellent novel about the effect of colonialism and, among other things, notions of white beauty on Black communities.
afterdark
6:30 am | Aug 18, 2007Came across this site through Jenn’s Reappropriate blog. Been reading the articles here on and off for over a week now. I thought I’d post a link to an NYT article on race and dating with some interesting reader comments that reflect those made by Senkeh. Take care all.
afterdark
6:31 am | Aug 18, 2007It’s late. Forgot the link. And apologies if some of you might have read it already when it was first published.
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-seeking-same-race-male/
Senkeh
4:50 pm | Aug 21, 2007You know, I read that article and the million comments after it and I gotta say…black folks better beware of opening that “our-own-men-don’t-treat-us-right-so-we’ll-just-date-white-men” door. Because once you so much as crack it open, it’s a tough one to close. And black men just might not like the consequences a few years down the line.
nskripchun
4:40 pm | Aug 27, 2007Senkeh>
Great post and thanks for contributing to the conversation… I really appreciated reading what you had to say.
sheeks
5:39 am | Sep 07, 2007hello fighting 44,
senkeh you hit the nail on the head. great post!!!!
PhoenixRisen
9:41 pm | Sep 10, 2007As a Black female I don’t agree with the methods of the women in the article. But I whole heartedly agree with the sentiments although I’m more frustrated than hurt. I know straight up that a LOT of black men find the lightes brightest black woman they can find and then she’s not enough so they straight up go White. It is is horribly frustrating to be subjected to Aryan standards of beauty when you see so much beauty in your own and other races that Whites themselves try and adapt (but of course translate it into an Aryan ideal). A lot of my and other black womens frustration comes from the lack of QUALITY men for Black women. As the article pointed out there already is a lack of educated men for educated women and when many Black men try to “date up” it does way more than ruffle your feathers.
One of the above posters asked in essence what were Black women bringing to the table. That right there leads me to believe that they have been swayed by many stereotypes of Black women. I can tell you that myself and most other Black women I know are working, educated and doing better than the Black men around. It’s hard enough to find a Black male without a rap sheet as long as your arm (and I don’t say that lightly I mean it quite literaly. We sit around and laugh about it but it’s not a laughing matter). When you see the few who do meet your standards running after White women who weigh more than you, have less education, seem to have less interest but have a head full of blonde hair to fling(you may even have more but it ain’t straight and blonde) getting these men it can drive you to do some pretty thoughtless things out of emotion. Many Asian men have mentioned seeing pretty Asian women with overweight, hairy white guys. They know how we feel. I think that was the point of putting up the article.
Thaihorse
10:43 pm | Nov 20, 2007This was a very interesting article and very interesting set of comments following it. The bottom line is that race and sex is at the heart of this argument, and we all see it in those terms, whether we’ll ever admit it or not.
I know that it is a fact that more black women are attending college than black men. It is also a fact that beyond college more black women will be working and living in environments where they will likely interact exclusively with white men. If a black woman begins a relationship with a white man in these circumstances am I supposed to hate her for that? And if she does support black organizations and helps people less fortunate than herself and I supposed to question her “blackness” because of whom she shares her bed with?
This society was built on racisim and every society has elements of racisim. Anyone living in the U.S. is aware of it, it practically starts from the crib. No one wants to feel rejected and I understand why the women in the article felt that way. We judge and interpret everything that happens to us based on race and on the race of the person doing or saying whatever it is we are reacting to. I think we all have had negative reactions to interracial dating at one time or another (I know I have) but I also know that if two consenting adults decide that they want to be together, it’s really none of my business, no matter how I feel about it. Ultimately, the only relationship I want to be concerned about is my own.
This society (our government, media, co-workers etc.) is fixated on race and sex. We care about who is sleeping with who and if they are the same color or not. It’s just reality and it’s the way it is. I honestly don’t think we’ll ever have truly rational discussions about this because it hits too close to home. People have their own minds and desires and ultimately they will do what they want. You can initially be attracted to someone physically or emotionally, but in my opinion, the relationship won’t last unless you both really have things on common and want and need the same things. If it’s simply based on sex, you won’t be able to stay in bed forever and you’ll see each others faults. In a real relationship you’ll see each others faults too, but you’ll also see the things that drew you to that person in the first place.
We all are meant to have companionship and I wish that for everyone. It may be with someone of the same race as you, or it might not be. In any case, when people are happy and content in their own relationships, they don’t have the time or desire to worry about other people’s relationships. I’m looking forward to joining that club someday.
nekohead
8:33 am | Dec 14, 2007Thank the LORD that my Big brother ONLY brought home BLACK Females. I have White friends. BUT, I don’t think I could take it if my brother dated a NON- Black women..”
Yes, my husband is NON-BLACK. But, he is NOT White. Well, ok.. he is White and Korean. That means ASIAN to Whites…” I could never do that to my daddy, brother or the rest of my family, by geting married to a White male.
My White friends are MARRIED to White partners.
Thaihorse
11:17 pm | Dec 17, 2007I know that there are a lot of Black/White couples here in the US and while I have met some very nice and attractive White women, because of the deeply ingrained racist history of this country I must admit that I have a natural distrust of most White people. I can easily see myself dating someone outside of my race, who is also not White. I am confident that my family would accept whomever I brought home (even a White person) as long as I was happy and we both treated each other well. I still think that if two consenting adults decide to fall in love and have a relationship together, that the ultimate approval for the relationship belongs with THEM, not society or even your immediate family. Of course there are always situations of inapporprite relationships (ie. a 40 year old man dating a 15 year old girl, a Jewish girl dating a rabid neo-nazi etc.) but that’s not the kind of relationships we are talking about here. I just believe that if your parents raised you right and they trust and respect you and you feel the same way about them, then you will pick someone who is suitable for you and they will accept your decision and be happy for you.
chocolatebutterfly
3:00 pm | Jan 08, 2008This is so sad but it is not unexpected.. I was seeing a Japanese guy and the looks we would get walking down the street, or the comments were just horrible. Unfortunately we do not live in a society where you are free to love whomever you choose, it does come with a price. As a Black Woman who dates outside of my race quite often I have been privvy to some pretty nasty things. My way of dealing with it is to just keep doing what im doing. I am not going to let society choose who I am attracted to or who I should be in love with.. I don’t specifically say ok I am only going to date Asian Men or White Men, or Jewish Men etc. What I say is that I want to meet someone that I can bond with, share my time with and love….He could be Green for all I care!