Brown’s “Wall of Shame” on Inter-racial Dating
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After a bit of searching, I managed to find an article I read a few years ago which opened my eyes to a perspective on inter-racial dating held by some Black women. Essentially, in the mid-nineties, a group of Black women at Brown University were so hurt and frustrated by what they perceived as the eagerness of Black men to date white women that they created a “Wall of Shame.” On this wall, they put photos of Black men who they felt were “guilty” of shunning Black women for white women, and perpetuating notions of white superiority in beauty.
It had an impact on me when I read it, because their feelings were so close to the feelings of some Asian-American males. If you replace “Black men” with “Asian women,” “Black women” with “Asian men,” and “white women” with “white men” in this article, you’ll get something that is pretty much 100% applicable in tone and feeling to the Asian-American situation and discourse.
This article brings up so many points of discussion, I can’t believe I didn’t search it out sooner. I’ll have more comments to make on it, and on this topic in general, since I feel the air is so thick with ego and pain and distortion, but I wanted to put up the article immediately so that people could understand a similar situation and set of emotions from a perspective where the race is different and the genders are reversed, which might serve as a basis for future reasoned and compassionate discussion.
From a Google cache of an article by the Chronicle of Higher Education
Interracial Dating Angers Many Black Women at Brown U.
By Ben Gose
From the issue dated May 10, 1996
Lauren Handelsman, a white sophomore at Brown University, didn’t expect many problems when she began dating a black student in the fall of 1994.
“We’re at Brown,” she remembers telling Thabiti Brown, her boyfriend, who is also a sophomore, as their friendship grew serious. “People are really open-minded here. People are nice here.”
“Well,” she says now, “I guess not.”
She had expected a few racist asides when they walked off-campus in Providence holding hands, or maybe some awkward small talk at mostly white parties.
Instead, the most flak has come from black women who think that black men who date non-black women are abandoning their race, Ms. Handelsman says. Many of them glare when she and Mr. Brown walk around the campus, she says. Friends tell her that some black women criticize her behind her back.
Last October, in an incident that still has students talking, seven black women got personal in their crusade against black-white romance.
The women, who had gathered in the dormitory room of Felicia Carmen Lyde, a sophomore, scrawled “Wall of Shame” on a wall with an erasable blue marker. They then wrote the names of famous black men who either date or have married white women, according to Ms. Lyde.
Then, on the door of Ms. Lyde’s room, the women made a second list, with about a dozen names of black men on the campus who, they said, date white women — including Thabiti Brown and, simply, “the basketball team.”
Ms. Lyde lives on the busy first floor of Harambee House, a dormitory for students who are interested in African-American culture. News of the “Wall of Shame” circulated quickly, setting off fierce arguments within the black community at Brown. Men on the list were hurt, as were children of mixed-race marriages. Most Brown students, however, did not learn about it until Michael Maimon, a white columnist at The Brown Daily Herald, the student newspaper, wrote about it in January.
The black women who created the list say it was the result of frustration that has been building for a long time. Black men at Brown have simply rejected them, they say.
“People come up to me and say, ‘Why did you do it? Didn’t you know it would hurt people’s feelings?’” says Ms. Lyde.
“Didn’t they know that my feelings have been hurt all along?”
When Ms. Handelsman heard about the list from a friend, she stayed up all night crying. “I was very upset, offended, hurt — just angry in general,” she says.
On one level, the controversy involving interracial dating at Brown is simply the most intimate version of a broader campus debate involving race and ethnicity. At many colleges, the need for racial solidarity runs up against the ideal of race-blindness in such issues as housing and special orientation programs for minority students.
But the dating issue is also a question of demographics. At Brown, black women outnumber black men 211 to 154. The discrepancy is even wider nationally. About 900,000 black women were enrolled in undergraduate and graduate programs at colleges and universities in 1994, compared with 550,000 black men, according to the U.S. Department of Education.
It makes things worse, says Leslie Abrams, a black junior at Brown, when “the black men who are here don’t want to have anything to do with you.” She says she was not involved in the “Wall of Shame” but sympathizes with those who created it.
Some black women at Brown believe that half of the black men there date white women at least occasionally.
But Ralph Johnson, a sophomore who made Ms. Lyde’s list, says he can count the number of black men in relationships with white women on two hands.
Mr. Johnson, who says he usually dated black women in high school, says he fell for Rachel Davidson, who is white, shortly after a friend introduced them in a campus cafeteria. They have dated for more than a year now.
“Two people can love each other, and there should be nothing wrong with that,” he says. “I cannot be blamed for the lack of black men who get together with black women.”
Rarely do controversies over interracial dating become public. Last spring, a Yale University graduate set off a furor on that campus with an article in The New York Times in which she described the dim prospects that black women at Yale faced in trying to get a date. The story said some black women were tolerating unfaithful boyfriends or were bowing to sexual pressure.
On weekend nights at Brown, Ms. Lyde says, “black women just sit around and talk with each other. That’s it.”
Ms. Handelsman says that she understands why black women are angry, but that the “Wall of Shame” was such a personal attack that it should have been treated as a violation of the student-conduct code. She took her complaints to Leonard Perry, an associate dean of student life who also serves as an adviser to Harambee House.
He visited Ms. Lyde’s room but says he saw only a few names on her door, and nothing that said “Wall of Shame.” Because Ms. Handelsman did not file a written complaint, the university did not conduct a formal investigation.
Mr. Perry noted tension between black men and women in the dormitory, however, and suggested a workshop on interracial dating.
About 50 students — almost all of them black, and two-thirds of them women — talked, cried, and shouted during a tempestuous four-hour meeting. When some black men denied that they loathed their own race, black women began to call out more names of black men who date white women.
Some students were angry that the administration had not responded more forcefully to the list.
“For Brown to ignore the ‘Wall of Shame’ is really pretty wild,” says Tabitha Suarez, a Daily Herald columnist. “Brown is the kind of university that goes haywire over any breach of sensitivity.”
Black women say black men naively succumb to standards of beauty drawn from mainstream magazines and movies, which present blond, blue-eyed women as the ideal.
Ms. Abrams, the Brown junior, who grew up in Gulfport, Miss., says that as a teen-ager, she went to bed wishing that her kinky hair would straighten by the time she awoke. Now she’s learned to love her hair, and she’d like black men to do the same. “If you’re in love, and it’s a simple matter of attraction, then go for it,” she says. “But if you’re attracted to a white woman because you’ve been taught that white is the prime standard of beauty, then that’s problematic.”
The women at Brown have a point, says Larry Hajime Shinagawa, an assistant professor in the department of American multicultural studies at Sonoma State University who has studied interracial marriage. Twice as many black men as black women are married to whites, he notes, adding that stereotypes have something to do with the pattern.
Some black men may accept racist stereotypes of black women as bossy homemakers or strident complainers, he argues. “Unfortunately, there are still some very, very negative views about black women in this society.”
Ms. Abrams says some black men are looking for a chance to “step up” to the white world. “I’ve heard guys here say they’re going to go get their good job, their big salary, their big house, their big cars — and their white wife.”
She isn’t interested in dating outside her race, she says, because she worries about the way racism might subtly infect the relationship.
Mr. Johnson, the Brown sophomore, says black women are overstating the extent of interracial dating. While black women flock around what he calls “flashy guys” and athletes, he says, quiet and studious black men are ignored.
Black women “should start looking up” at all the available men around them, he says. “These are brothers who will be running companies someday.”
He says the idea that he has turned his back on his race by dating a white woman is absurd. He is the treasurer of Brown’s largest black-student group, the Organization of United African Peoples, and spent much of this winter scheduling campus speakers for Black History Month. Once a week, he heads to a Providence community center where he serves as a mentor for black high-school students.
The “Wall of Shame” is a distraction, he says. “There are so many other things that need this kind of energy and attention.”
Ms. Davidson, his girlfriend, says she wasn’t surprised by the naming of names on the door. She had sensed resentment from some black women from the first week of her relationship. “It was just a blatant display of something that we knew existed subtly,” she says.
The incident has strained relations between allies in Brown’s minority community. Several members of the Brown Organization of Multiracial and Biracial Students have one parent who is black and another who is white. “It’s indirectly expressing disapproval for their existence,” says Emily Lam, a leader of the group. She is of Chinese and Peruvian ancestry.
Jocelyn Burrell, a freshman who has a black father and a white mother, says she was devastated when she heard of the list. As a child, she says, she was stung when she overheard black men make “horribly derogatory” comments about black women.
She attended the heated meeting about interracial dating at Harambee House in part because she wanted to commiserate with the black women, she says. Yet she also wanted to tell them how badly she had been hurt by their action.
But the black woman leading the conversation would not let her speak, she says, because she is dating a white high-school student. “It’s like there was a hierarchy of pain.”
There is for Ms. Lyde. “I’m trying to talk to the black man, and they’re crying about being insulted. That’s the problem — everyone wants to get in on the conversation.”
Several black men have erased their names from the list on Ms. Lyde’s door. But even after eight months, two names remain. Ms. Lyde has no plans to remove them.
“Is it not the truth?” she asks.
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CJF
12:33 pm | Aug 10, 2007In blacks, there is a desparity between BF/WM and BM/WF, except it is opposite from Asian American and not as bad.
Maxjulian
1:03 pm | Aug 10, 2007Good article. Why are so many black men supposedly dating outside of the race? Is it simply self-hate? Could there be other reasons, in combination, that account for this phenomenon? Since it takes two to tango - or not tango in this case - what are these black women bringing to the table? What is their contribution to the failure of black relationships? Or are they simply victims of black men?
I understand being hurt because you can’t get a date and being concerned about the race and how we relate to each other; but to mount a PR campaign against “black men who date white women”?! How will that breed good relations between black women and men?
I can relate to the comment in the article about bookish guys being passed over for roughrider types. That happens and is justifiable. People’s taste is people’s taste. But I’m not getting out on a street corner because I fine sisters step over and around me to get to Michael Vick.
The response of the Brown coeds is an infantile response to a serious issue - the breakdown in the relations between black men and women - and perhaps this communications ’strategy’ is connected to why relations are so bad in the first place. How about talking To and not AT each other; get in a room and speak from the heart. AND, take a look at yourself and figure out how YOU contribute to your being alone.
MelaninManson
7:51 pm | Aug 10, 2007“If you replace “Black men” with “Asian women,” “Black women” with “Asian men,” and “white women” with “white men” in this article, you’ll get something that is pretty much 100% applicable in tone and feeling to the Asian-American situation and discourse.” - Dialectic
Wow. That’s a frightening article. I think I would have gone to jail had someone in Cornell attempted such blatant disrespect towards me just because of my personal life. That article displays the problems that occur when people allow their bitterness and anger to replace reasonable thought on political issues. I really hope the Asian American male argument involves more than the knee-jerk “Why won’t they date us?” vibe those Black women at Brown exposed. Seriously, this idea that members of a particular racial group are socially obligated to date each other has no place in any free multicultural and multiracial country. A person’s racial identity should not be called into question because of their dating choices.
Frankly, this extended focus on interracial dating as antagonistic to the best interests of Black women and/or Asian men only divides communities already under siege from all manner of serious socio-economic issues. The unceasing IR debate allows bitter single people of color to whine about their loneliness and label that whining ‘activism’. It’s absurd and wasteful energy. A ‘Wall of Shame’ to cajole and berate Black men into dating Black women? That’s so utterly pathetic I’m surprised the people involved allowed themselves to be quoted in the media.
jaehwan
8:21 pm | Aug 10, 2007“I think I would have gone to jail had someone in Cornell attempted such blatant disrespect towards me just because of my personal life.”–Melanin
Melanin:
Why would YOU have gone to jail if someone else disrespected you? I’m reading this as a subtle indication that you would’ve been violent against these black women. Please correct me if I’m misreading.
“Frankly, this extended focus on interracial dating as antagonistic to the best interests of Black women and/or Asian men only divides communities already under siege from all manner of serious socio-economic issues.”
I’m not saying I agree or disagree on the “best interests” question, but I’m curious: what criteria do YOU use to differentiate between what is a “serious” issue and what is not?
Scowl
8:35 pm | Aug 10, 2007“Seriously, this idea that members of a particular racial group are socially obligated to date each other has no place in any free multicultural and multiracial country.”
It’s not the idea that people of the same racial group are obligated to date each other. It’s the phenomenon of racial self-hate and how it manifests among minorities in North America. People do put too much emphasis on IR dating, but in many ways it’s the most visible symptom of low racial self-esteem.
It also has to do with ethnocentrism. Now, you might say that ethnocentrism has no place in our society, and I would not completely disagree. However, it is a vital component in developing a healthy sense of self and identity, which is something that all minorities in the US really, really need. It is when you go beyond a certain point that it becomes unhealthy and pathological.
MelaninManson
8:57 pm | Aug 10, 2007“It’s the phenomenon of racial self-hate and how it manifests among minorities in North America. People do put too much emphasis on IR dating, but in many ways it’s the most visible symptom of low racial self-esteem.” - Scowl
IR dating does not imply racial self-hate. Rather, it makes no statements on racial self-hate whatsoever. Calling IR dating a symptom of low racial self-esteem strikes me as illogical, since people could work in the best interests of their race for decades and still date or marry someone outside of their race. Seriously, I’m tired of people who reduce racial affiliation to sharing one’s genitals with someone who shares one’s shade. My Blackness has always been much more layered and nuanced and complicated than who I sleep with.
“Why would YOU have gone to jail if someone else disrespected you? I’m reading this as a subtle indication that you would’ve been violent against these black women. Please correct me if I’m misreading.” - Jaehwan
Yeah, you are seriously misreading. I never indicated violence against anyone. That’s bizarre.
“I’m not saying I agree or disagree on the “best interests” question, but I’m curious: what criteria do YOU use to differentiate between what is a “serious” issue and what is not?” - Jaehwan
I’ll say this: in my opinion, the Black women at Brown profiled in this article do not have a serious complaint. They argue that Black men at Brown should date Black women there exclusively, rejecting all others. That argument attempts to control Black male sexual behavior in a frightening manner, one that parallels the perspectives of Southern Whites during slavery and segregation. Black men are free to date who they choose in this society, and anyone who expresses dismay at that freedom deserves nothing but contempt, regardless of their justifications and/or melanin content.
And no, I don’t have much patience for that stupidity. I don’t consider a political position ’serious’ if it demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from any group of American citizens. Asking Black men or Asian women to date a specific group demands that aforementioned reduction, and should not be tolerated.
CJF
9:40 pm | Aug 10, 2007Do we really need more IR daters thumping their chests in pride that they aren’t dating their own race?
Do we need more IR daters telling me how multicultural they are even though the only race they will date is white?
Do we need more white men who claim to be liberal and into different cultures going to Asia to fornicate with underaged girls for a couple of dollars, then come back and tell their buddies of their awesome sex trips?
Do we need more hapas with their overinflated egos, walking into Chinatown with their white friends and acting like they own the place?
White Only signs were in the South that designated what race went with which water fountain. A lot of AF have white only signs hanging around their panties. Maybe Jim Crow laws are a turn on for them?
CJF
9:42 pm | Aug 10, 2007“IR dating does not imply racial self-hate. Rather, it makes no statements on racial self-hate whatsoever. Calling IR dating a symptom of low racial self-esteem strikes me as illogical, since people could work in the best interests of their race for decades and still date or marry someone outside of their race. Seriously, I’m tired of people who reduce racial affiliation to sharing one’s genitals with someone who shares one’s shade. My Blackness has always been much more layered and nuanced and complicated than who I sleep with.”
Is some woman claiming she doesn’t date her race because her race is abusive and domineering supposedly working for the best interest of her race?
Heli
10:09 pm | Aug 10, 2007On this topic, we Asian men can keep hating IR disparity or we can even the playing field by getting good at PU and landing as many hot white chicks as we can get. I think I am going with the latter.
nskripchun
12:11 am | Aug 11, 2007I think the commonality between the situation of Asian American males and Black females isn’t so much that their counterparts date inter-racially; it’s that so many date inter-racially to the COMPLETE EXCLUSION of people from their own ethnic background.
Like some of the other ‘moderates’ here at the Fighting44s, I don’t feel like inter-racial dating in and of itself is harmful, but there’s something definitely wrong with not speaking out on the following, and quite common situations:
-Black men who refuse to date Black women and ONLY date white women.
-Asian American women who refuse to date Asian American men and ONLY date white men.
Is it possible that every single IR relationship “just happened” by mere personal choice? Maybe.
I think it’s far more likely that it’s evidence that there are larger racist social and cultural forces at work - that whiteness is the standard of beauty; the emasculation and demonization of Asian men; the common notion that Black women aren’t “feminine enough” for a heterosexual relationships; etc.
Scowl
1:25 am | Aug 11, 2007“IR dating does not imply racial self-hate. Rather, it makes no statements on racial self-hate whatsoever.”
By itself, no, it doesn’t.
What suggests the existence of a problem is the wide disparity between the genders when it comes to outdating/outmarriage.
Is responsibility not a reduction in freedom, as well?
Heli
2:23 am | Aug 11, 2007I have been rejected may times by Asian chicks before at clubs, but I always thought that it was because I was not being charming enough or my game was not tight enough, not because I was an Asian male….
blockthebox
2:25 am | Aug 11, 2007MelaninManson: “Frankly, this extended focus on interracial dating as antagonistic to the best interests of Black women and/or Asian men only divides communities already under siege from all manner of serious socio-economic issues. The unceasing IR debate allows bitter single people of color to whine about their loneliness and label that whining ‘activism’. It’s absurd and wasteful energy. A ‘Wall of Shame’ to cajole and berate Black men into dating Black women? That’s so utterly pathetic I’m surprised the people involved allowed themselves to be quoted in the media.”
The only whining here is coming from you. We’ve already heard you make the same tired argument about your right to (what was that lovely expression you used?) commingle your genitals or whatever with whomever you please. I’ve never heard someone feel the need to justify their IR so much from a series of articles. Thank you! We get it!
jaehwan
2:29 am | Aug 11, 2007First, I personally agree with you on the self-hate thing, Melanin. Amy Tan clearly hates Asian men. She doesn’t hate Asian women. So I agree that self-hate may not always be relevant to whom you date. Sometimes it may be, but not always.
I’ll answer your other stuff in reverse order:
You wrote:
“And no, I don’t have much patience for that stupidity. I don’t consider a political position ’serious’ if it demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from any group of American citizens.”
Scowl answered this, but I’ll add on. Reduction in freedom? You’re going to have to come up with a much better argument/definition than that. You see, freedom is subjective. If I demand that schools are integrated, I’m impinging on the freedom that the administrators have to make all white schools. If I demand that a golf club allow black people to join, I’m impinging on the freedom of the board members to restrict their membership.
Every civil rights movement that has ever taken place has impinged on someone’s freedom. By your logic, I could say argue that no political issue is serious. So your definition doesn’t work.
You wrote:
“Yeah, you are seriously misreading. I never indicated violence against anyone. That’s bizarre.”
I hope you don’t think I’m belaboring a point, but you did indicate violence. Why else would someone else disrespect you and the end result be you in jail?
I’m not trying to win the argument, I’m just trying to understand what you are trying to say. I’m pretty sure you were indicating violence, perhaps in a moment of outrage, and I agree with you that those black women shouldn’t have made a Wall of Shame, so outrage (but not violence) is understandable. I don’t care that you indicated violence, but we should try to understand why you have that violence in your outrage.
I think in the case of this article, everyone is wondering why you aren’t empathizing with these black women.
I’ve known white guys who empathize with black women, and I’ve read essays by black men who empathize with them as well. People of all races empathize with them. Why don’t you?
CJF
2:36 am | Aug 11, 2007“And no, I don’t have much patience for that stupidity. I don’t consider a political position ’serious’ if it demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from any group of American citizens. Asking Black men or Asian women to date a specific group demands that aforementioned reduction, and should not be tolerated.”
Reduction of freedom? No no no. You have the freedom to do as you please. Only know that your actions have consequences. When an AF says she only dates whites, that sends the message that AM are incompetent. If you want to claim you are part of an Asian pride movement, your freedom to only date whites is a contradiction to whatever you say in terms of advancement of Asians in America.
What do you think of Ted Haggard, the preacher who spoke against homsexuality while he was visiting a gay prostitute in which he himself was committing oral sex on? He was preaching one thing that he probably did believe in…that gays go to hell…but he was living another.
If you want to preach pride in Asian America, then your life has to be swamped by Asian America. That’s the message, I think, that some are saying here, and it makes sense.
So if your need to sleep with whites is greater than your pride for being Asian, be ready to sacrifice your credibility to the movement.
MelaninManson
3:05 am | Aug 11, 2007“I’m pretty sure you were indicating violence … I don’t care that you indicated violence, but we should try to understand why you have that violence in your outrage.” - Jaehwan
Jaehwan, you can imply what you thought I meant with that statement as much as you like. I’ve already made it clear what I meant.
There’s no need to attempt psychoanalysis, or to imply that a Black man who jokingly references jail time as a result of a controversy automatically indicates violence toward someone.
“I think in the case of this article, everyone is wondering why you aren’t empathizing with these black women. I’ve known white guys who empathize with black women, and I’ve read essays by black men who empathize with them as well. People of all races empathize with them. Why don’t you? - Jaehwan
Those Black women at Brown did not have a reasonable gripe. To empathize with their position, one has to buy the argument that men and women who share the same general racial identity must date each other, at least to the moderate exclusion of all other groups. I don’t find any utility in that position; it reminds me of White slaveowners so hyper-concerned with their racist fears of Black male sexuality that they enacted laws barring interracial coupling with Black men.
Certainly, Jaehwan, those Black women at Brown did not have the power to force their Black male counterparts to date who they told them to, but the ‘Wall of Shame’ must be interpreted as an unorthodox method of behavior modification through intra-communal ostracism. This is the reason Ms. Lyde remarked with disapproval that she’s “trying to talk to the black man, and they’re (mixed-race students) crying about being insulted. That’s the problem - everyone wants to get in on the conversation.”
Bottom line, I think anyone who wants to tell me (and people like me) what to do with my penis does not deserve empathy or respect.
Because of this, I don’t understand Dialectic’s co-signing of the Wall of Shame. If he finds useful parallels between Black women and Asian men within the interracial dating debate, that’s on him, but this sad episode only exposed the utter futility involved when a group of people tries to cajole others into following their pre-planned sexual dictates. Nothing changes, except a community is further divided.
Jaehwan, why do you emphasize with these Black women’s position here? Do you think that Black men owe Black women their personal dating time? If so, why doesn’t that perspective subtract freedom and liberty from Black men?
MelaninManson
3:23 am | Aug 11, 2007“Reduction of freedom? No no no. You have the freedom to do as you please. Only know that your actions have consequences. When an AF says she only dates whites, that sends the message that AM are incompetent. If you want to claim you are part of an Asian pride movement, your freedom to only date whites is a contradiction to whatever you say in terms of advancement of Asians in America.” - CJF
Honestly, when a AF, or anyone for that matter, says she ‘only dates Whites’, that sends the message that that particular person only dates Whites. Any other commentary one finds with that AF’s preference imposes one’s personal biases on that AF’s free choice.
Certainly, when an Asian female says she’ll only date White men (a position I’ve never heard personally, by the way) she also implies that she won’t date Black and Latino men. Are Black and Latino men supposed to feel insulted or believe that their masculinity has been threatened? Of course not.
No person of color lives with an obligation to date within their respective race at any time in their lives.
Further, I have no understanding of Asian pride movements at all, and cannot speak on them. I just hope that useful, productive political members of Asian America have not been ejected from the race over something as trivial as their dating choices. The Rev. Ted Haggard controversy does not offer a useful parallel here, because Haggard used his preeminence in the evangelical movement to condemn homosexuals, and encouraged negative social sanctions against them.
I’ve never met an Asian race activist who condemned anyone. Those folk have always focused on empowering fellow Asians to understand their history, cultures, and the political issues that beset the race. Without that condemnation, I don’t see where the so-called hypocrisy parallel emerges.
CJF
4:27 am | Aug 11, 2007You’ve never heard of an Asian Race Advocate that condemned anybody?
Read celebrated “advocate” Amy Tan’s works and you will see her condemning Asian men as evil domineering people who control you with their evil Asian culture.
And you’ve never heard of Asian girls only dating whites? Where have you been. I know plenty of those types. They are around. They only date white men. White only. You might as well put up Jim Crow signs that read White Only above their vulva just like those signs were above water fountains in the South.
The Haggard incident is totally relavent to this. A major issue with AA’s is masculinity of the men. AA men are perceieved by western culture as being weak, having small penises and incapable of romance.
If you are an Asian Advocate female, and your husband is white, and you are fighting to abolish the stereotype of Asian men being sexually incompetent a scenario can be like this:
Asian Female: The portrayal of Asian males in media as asexual robotic beings is a disgrace.
White Male: If Asian men are so sexual, then why do Asian Females like yourself refuse to date them?
Asian Female: It is my right to marry who I please. I choose to date white men.
White Male: Why? Because Asian Men have small penises?
Asian Female: No. That’s not true. The studies show…
White Male: Well apparently the studies weren’t enough to convince you to date them…
When you are an advocate for AA rights, you have to live it. If you don’t, you are nothing but a walking hypocritical target that weakens the movement immensely, and you support the very notions that you are fighting against.
off topic: Jesus, I have too much free time for my 3 week vacation :-D
Scowl
1:40 pm | Aug 11, 2007“To empathize with their position, one has to buy the argument that men and women who share the same general racial identity must date each other, at least to the moderate exclusion of all other groups. I don’t find any utility in that position; it reminds me of White slaveowners so hyper-concerned with their racist fears of Black male sexuality that they enacted laws barring interracial coupling with Black men.”
Is it really a fair comparison to put those Black women at Brown on par with White slave owners in the slavery era?
Would you say that preferring to date your own “race” is racist, and that ethnocentrism has no place in our society today? The reason I ask is that I believe this is a fundamental difference that must be resolved (if it can be) before any progress can be made in any further discussion. I really think that the IR issue boils down to this.
DONKEY
3:59 pm | Aug 11, 2007I disagree with the person quoted in the article that said:
“It’s indirectly expressing disapproval for their existence,”
it’s just plain wrong.
Also it doesn’t seem like the point of the “Wall of Shame” was to intimidate them into dating black women. Obviously that would never work. It called attention to the disparity made people question why it exists. The author of this article seems to understand that.
Iron Mike
9:34 pm | Aug 11, 2007“Asian Female: The portrayal of Asian males in media as asexual robotic beings is a disgrace.
White Male: If Asian men are so sexual, then why do Asian Females like yourself refuse to date them?
Asian Female: It is my right to marry who I please. I choose to date white men.
White Male: Why? Because Asian Men have small penises?
Asian Female: No. That’s not true. The studies show…
White Male: Well apparently the studies weren’t enough to convince you to date them…”
I know “you can’t help who you fall in love with,” sounds trite, but let’s face it- it’s true. Just dating a white man does not necessarily preclude one from thinking that Asian men are equal. The hypothetical woman in your situation could have dated Asian men in the past, or could be willing to date Asian men in the future. A problem only arises if she outright refuses to date an Asian man- then she is a hypocrite. And I don’t doubt those type of women do exist, but based on my experiences they’re a minority who are looked down upon as narrow-minded by Asian males and females alike. Sure you may find a lot of Asian women who incidentally date white men, but I don’t think you’ll find many who exclusively date white men (or at the very least, admit that to other Asians).
Dialectic
9:38 pm | Aug 11, 2007“White Only signs were in the South that designated what race went with which water fountain. A lot of AF have white only signs hanging around their panties. Maybe Jim Crow laws are a turn on for them?”
Haha, CJF, I gotta say, that was pretty witty. See my latest piece for yet another clarification of what I’m actually saying, and also some general thoughts on the hypocrisy of the American advocates’ obsession with freedom.
jaehwan
3:09 am | Aug 12, 2007“Jaehwan, you can imply what you thought I meant with that statement as much as you like. I’ve already made it clear what I meant.
There’s no need to attempt psychoanalysis, or to imply that a Black man who jokingly references jail time as a result of a controversy automatically indicates violence toward someone.”
Haha. Melanin, no offense, but I KNEW you’d pull the race card out on me sooner rather than later. The fact that you mention your blackness ad nauseum clued me in on what was to come. My question had nothing to do with you being black. It was logical: Why would you end up in jail if someone else harassed you? Logically speaking, the only logical answer is that you were implying that you would use violence.
You say you made it clear what you really meant, but you never answered it–why would you end up in jail? For the umpteenth time, WHY WOULD YOU END UP IN JAIL? (Will you finally answer this?)
Haha. You seem like a nice enough guy, so I’m going to let you in on a little secret. I’m going to tell you why highly intelligent people get frustrated when they talk to you. I’m going to tell you something that you probably don’t realize, but something that you’ll understand if you stop to think about it.
The secret is this: you often don’t use logic when you write; you use emotion. It’s like answering a question with a rant. It tells us how you feel, but it doesn’t do any good in answering the question or bringing us closer to the truth. Again I’m saying this in a constructive way, so no offense intended.
Let me give you some examples:
1. Your status as a black man dating an Asian woman: blockthebox called you out because you’ve mentioned your blackness or your girlfriend’s Asianness more times than most of us care to count. What does this have to do with the rational arguments that people are putting forth on the topic? Most people hate ad hominem attacks because they focus on the person rather than the argument. You do the same thing but in the other direction; you focus on YOU rather than on the argument. If your arguments are sound, it shouldn’t matter who is making them. Your personal life is irrelevant. The fact that you constantly bring up your status as a black man dating an Asian woman in order to argue a point seems to indicate to me that you THINK it’s a deductive or inductive proof of some sort. It isn’t. It’s irrelevant.
2. Freedom: You say that “I don’t consider a political position ’serious’ if it demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from any group of American citizens.”
Logically, the first thing that occurs to the rational being is to come up with an example. And the first example that comes up is civil rights. And we see in civil rights that ALL change demands that someone give up certain freedoms.
I saw this contradiction immediately. Scowl saw it. CJF saw it. And we all saw it instantly. It’s surprising that you didn’t see it. And it’s surprising that you still have not answered it. It’s not a valid statement because it can’t be applied to any situation EVER. When can you complain about any issue without curtailing the freedom of at least one group or person?
So yet AGAIN, we have another unanswered question: “what criteria do YOU use to differentiate between what is a “serious” issue and what is not?”
3. “To empathize with their position, one has to buy the argument that men and women who share the same general racial identity must date each other, at least to the moderate exclusion of all other groups.”
It necessitates no such thing. Do black men and black women have equal social capital in this country? I say no, Ellis Cose says no, Terry Macmillan says no, and most people agree…no. Actually, you’re the only person I’ve ever met who seems to imply that they do. You don’t have to agree with their actions (I don’t) or believe in a cross gender obligation to date (I don’t) in order to empathize with their position (I do.).
So to be fair, let me answer your questions:
1. “why do you emphasize with these Black women’s position here?” Because they don’t have the social capital that black men have, and they’re angry about inequality.
2. “Do you think that Black men owe Black women their personal dating time?” No, but an understanding black man will empathize with their plight.
3. “If so, why doesn’t that perspective subtract freedom and liberty from Black men?” I don’t think black men have to date black women, nor do I think Asian women have to date Asian men.
Does this clarify?
Dialectic
3:55 pm | Aug 12, 2007Just skimmed a bit of this thread. Wow, Melanin, here I was thinking you’d contribute to a reasoned discussion, but damn, you imply that you would’ve beaten the shit out of these Black women for what they did?
I mean, I know you were probably just being rhetorical, and you probably wouldn’t have actually beaten them, but still, just to imply it to get your emotions across? Damn man, you think your Asian feminist girlfriend would’ve been as polite and reasonable as we’ve been to you, to an Asian male who implied something like that to her?
But something tells me you guys aren’t gonna break up over a little comment like that. So where does that leave the Black women? Can they trust you? Where does that leave Asian males? Can we trust someone who tolerates a boyfriend who implies violence toward women when they’re trying to express their sense of rejection and betrayal?
But from what I’ve seen already, you guys are cool with people getting rejected and feeling betrayed, as long as it’s not you.
Hey, irrational self-centered double-standards, that seems to be what the advocates are all about these days.
Hope your girl’s reading this. Hell, hope your mom’s reading this.
MelaninManson
9:28 pm | Aug 12, 2007“Do black men and black women have equal social capital in this country? I say no, Ellis Cose says no, Terry Macmillan says no, and most people agree…no. Actually, you’re the only person I’ve ever met who seems to imply that they do. You don’t have to agree with their actions (I don’t) or believe in a cross gender obligation to date (I don’t) in order to empathize with their position (I do.).” - Jaehwan
So let me understand you Jaehwan - you remind us that you believe that Black women do not share equal social capital in America as justification for your support of a group of Black women who lampoon and criticize the personal choices of a subset of Black men. Further, you remind us of the ‘plight’ of Black women given this lack of social capital as justification for a political position that (when applied to Asian American identity politics) generally degrades the social capital of Asian American women, since this article has been used by Dialectic to justify the idea that Asian American female activists should not date interracially if they choose.
Have we reached color-coded feminism in this discussion Jaehwan? You champion young Black female self-expression, even when used to ostracize young Black men, while this episode was used by Dialectic to illustrate the utility of social ostracism when attacking Asian women activists who date interracially. Black woman, say whatever you like, no matter how hurtful or vitriolic; Asian woman, remain silent and politically submissive unless chaperoned by an Asian man? That makes no sense.
Further, no matter Black women’s social capital (which should be equal to all other members in this society, not just Black men) they do not have the right to impede Black men’s free association with intra-communal social ostracism. Throughout Dialectic’s piece, he outlined the communal safeguards against the general personal freedom Americans enjoy, and we should all remember that within racial minority circles, the perceived slights and indignities portions of our communities face do not allow those factions the right to hamper the freedoms other members of our communities enjoy.
No matter the supposed interracial dating disparity within the Asian American community, I don’t agree with Asian American men who tell Asian American women that they can’t date who they choose.
No matter the supposed difficulties inherent in finding a upwardly mobile, pleasant and professional ‘good Black man’, I don’t agree with Black women who tell Black men that they can’t date who they choose.
MelaninManson
9:38 pm | Aug 12, 2007“Is it really a fair comparison to put those Black women at Brown on par with White slave owners in the slavery era? Would you say that preferring to date your own “race” is racist, and that ethnocentrism has no place in our society today?” - Scowl
I think it’s a totally fair comparison, given the parameters I outlined earlier. Preferring to date any one race in particular illustrates questionable interpersonal politics to me, because that action prefers group identification over individual self-worth, in my opinion. I realize people disagree, but to me, the person who desperately seeks someone with a predetermined racial and sexual makeup openly announces how little they care for all the individual particulars that make a person worthwhile.
Outside of that, I think ethnocentrism has outlived whatever usefulness others found in it long ago in American identity politics.
“Haha. Melanin, no offense, but I KNEW you’d pull the race card out on me sooner rather than later. The fact that you mention your blackness ad nauseum clued me in on what was to come. My question had nothing to do with you being black. It was logical: Why would you end up in jail if someone else harassed you? Logically speaking, the only logical answer is that you were implying that you would use violence.” - Jaehwan
Sometimes when Black men challenge harassment on college campuses police are called in. It happens. None of that implies that anyone has been violent towards anyone else. The simple act of Black men disagreeing with others in public makes people uneasy. Many contentious marathon meetings involving the Black community at Cornell (like the meeting referenced in the article) enjoyed uniformed police protection no one requested, just because the mere presence of a few hundred Black people in one place made the school jumpy. It happens.
The racist justifications aside, many Black male college students live with the threat of unfair and unjust police scrutiny over nonexistent infractions on a daily basis. I don’t expect everyone to know that Jaehwan, but no one has to make and/or believe the patently racist assumption that a Black man in jail has been violent towards someone.
Further, using your mistaken impression of my response to this article to overlook my opinions in this thread only displays how little you value a differing opinion.
MelaninManson
9:40 pm | Aug 12, 2007“Your status as a black man dating an Asian woman: blockthebox called you out because you’ve mentioned your blackness or your girlfriend’s Asianness more times than most of us care to count.” - Jaehwan
I’ve mentioned our racial labels on this site only once, in another thread, because you asked Jenn to when you encouraged us to discuss Dialectic’s writing in this space:
“At August 9th, 2007 at 4:09 pm, jaehwan said: … Jenn, Why not post on his blog as well? (As I’ve mentioned before, he’s posted here.) I think your question could be so easy to post. Just say, “I’m an Asian woman dating a black guy, and I am an advocate. I run reappropriate. Do I have a right to be an advocate?” (http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=804#comment-58027)
“Logically, the first thing that occurs to the rational being is to come up with an example. And the first example that comes up is civil rights. And we see in civil rights that ALL change demands that someone give up certain freedoms.” - Jaehwan
You’re speaking of the freedom to discriminate, disenfranchise, and exclude others, correct? Well, since discrimination, disenfranchisement, and exclusion all reduce the range of meaningful choices of others (read: demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from a group of American citizens) I tend not to recognize those freedoms as useful for our society.
Maybe you do. But your point has been made, semantic and trite though it was.
Seriously, if anyone wants to force people to answer certain questions, can someone encourage Dialectic to respond to the questions about Ron Takaki and Helen Zia and Bruce Lee that Jenn posed earlier? If race activists shouldn’t date interracially, doesn’t the Asian American community have to disavow many of it’s most effective activists?
CJF
11:10 pm | Aug 12, 2007I know “you can’t help who you fall in love with,” sounds trite, but let’s face it- it’s true. Just dating a white man does not necessarily preclude one from thinking that Asian men are equal. The hypothetical woman in your situation could have dated Asian men in the past, or could be willing to date Asian men in the future. A problem only arises if she outright refuses to date an Asian man- then she is a hypocrite. And I don’t doubt those type of women do exist, but based on my experiences they’re a minority who are looked down upon as narrow-minded by Asian males and females alike. Sure you may find a lot of Asian women who incidentally date white men, but I don’t think you’ll find many who exclusively date white men (or at the very least, admit that to other Asians).
Iron Mike
If these women “just happened” to fall in love with whites, then why don’t we see more East AF dating Hispanics, blacks, indians or arabs?
I went to San Francisco the other day, and for every 20 AF/WM I saw, I saw 1 AF/BM. And to be honest, I thought it was cool seeing an asian and black union.
The demographics of San Francisco are. For every 1 black man in SF there is about 6 white men. There are probably 1 hispanic male for every 4 white male.
It has nothing to do with interracial dating. Interracial dating is dating all races. These AF are dating the WHITE race and are empowering WHITENING America if anything rather than mixing America.
CJF
11:32 pm | Aug 12, 2007“Have we reached color-coded feminism in this discussion Jaehwan? You champion young Black female self-expression, even when used to ostracize young Black men, while this episode was used by Dialectic to illustrate the utility of social ostracism when attacking Asian women activists who date interracially. Black woman, say whatever you like, no matter how hurtful or vitriolic; Asian woman, remain silent and politically submissive unless chaperoned by an Asian man? That makes no sense.”
But you totally miss a huge point Melanin. Black feminism is about feeling proud about yourself. About saying, “I’m black. I’m skinny or I’m fat. I’m smart or I’m dumb. But no matter what the fuck happens, I’m always proud that I’m female and black.”
Black women, while being proud of being female, love their race. They love black men. You hear them saying the greatest things about black men.
Amy Tan Feminism is about feeling insecure. About feeling insecure of her little titties than white girls. Or of feeling insecure about her bigger titties than Asian girls from Asia. Of feeling insecure about her strict parents. Of feeling restricted to majoring in something useful besides a bullshit degree in Beethovenism (I made it up calm down ;) ). Of being grateful of western culture. Of being grateful of your white boyfriend freeing you from the shackles of Asian culture.
Ohh white man, thank you for freeing me. Thank you for I do not have to deal with my parents. Thank you for I do not have to have the abusive Asian BF that I’m labeling abusive because I read an AMy Tan book. Thank you White Man for I don’t have to use chopsticks and can now use a fork. Thank you white man for now I have to take herpes medications because he cheated on another Asian girl while with me…but oh white man am I still thankful (last part was for chuckles)
That is Amy Tan Asian Feminism. And that is the feminism being taught to Asian girls in schools today and by peers and by the media. That is the Asian Feminism that makes Asian girls more likely to date whites than any other minority. That is the Asian Feminism that causes the AF/WM phenomenon that EVERYBODY is noticing.
jaehwan
1:09 am | Aug 13, 2007“Sometimes when Black men challenge harassment on college campuses police are called in. It happens. None of that implies that anyone has been violent towards anyone else. The simple act of Black men disagreeing with others in public makes people uneasy. Many contentious marathon meetings involving the Black community at Cornell (like the meeting referenced in the article) enjoyed uniformed police protection no one requested, just because the mere presence of a few hundred Black people in one place made the school jumpy. It happens.
The racist justifications aside, many Black male college students live with the threat of unfair and unjust police scrutiny over nonexistent infractions on a daily basis. I don’t expect everyone to know that Jaehwan, but no one has to make and/or believe the patently racist assumption that a Black man in jail has been violent towards someone. ”
Okay, but that’s irrelevant. You’re on a MESSAGE board. Why would anyone here get uneasy? People can’t even see you. If you think that people view you as a threat on this board and feel like calling the police, you’re paranoid. I would’ve called out your joking threat of violence whether you were black, white, or Asian. In fact, the only reason why everyone knows you’re black is because you’re constantly reminding us.
Melanin, like I said, you sound like a nice guy, but I think this is a cop-out. I know lots of black people who are perfectly rational, don’t threaten women with violence–even in jest–and have perfectly normal conversations without bringing out the race card.
And you still haven’t answered the question of why you would be in jail. If it were really were not a reference to violence, I think you would’ve told me (and everyone else) what you were trying to say.
“Further, you remind us of the ‘plight’ of Black women given this lack of social capital as justification for a political position that (when applied to Asian American identity politics) generally degrades the social capital of Asian American women, since this article has been used by Dialectic to justify the idea that Asian American female activists should not date interracially if they choose.”
Okay, revisiting the idea of logic again. Take things one at a time: Nuclear science can create bombs that kill millions of people at a time. But it can also create clean power. Just because I might be against nuclear bombs, doesn’t mean I’m against nuclear power. X is bad “when applied” to Y has no meaning. We’re just talking about X, not Y. And I’m saying that I empathize with black women, not that I agree with what they did with their Wall of Shame.
“At August 9th, 2007 at 4:09 pm, jaehwan said: … Jenn, Why not post on his blog as well? (As I’ve mentioned before, he’s posted here.) I think your question could be so easy to post. Just say, “I’m an Asian woman dating a black guy, and I am an advocate. I run reappropriate. Do I have a right to be an advocate?” (http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=804#comment-58027)”
Well, this makes perfect sense since Jenn is exactly what we’re talking about. We’re talking about racial activists who intermarry, specifically Asian women. What better way to discuss it than to bring out a real life example?
On the other hand, we’re not talking about black men dating Asian women and whether they face discrimination, and we’re not talking about YOU, unless we’re discussing your arguments. Your constant rehashing of who you are isn’t relevant. Say it once, but after you introduce yourself, stick with the logical approach because your personal story is off topic.
“You’re speaking of the freedom to discriminate, disenfranchise, and exclude others, correct? Well, since discrimination, disenfranchisement, and exclusion all reduce the range of meaningful choices of others (read: demands a reduction in freedom, liberty, or equality from a group of American citizens) I tend not to recognize those freedoms as useful for our society.”
Where are you getting this? Since we’re talking about black women’s feelings, and since I specifically said that I didn’t approve of their Wall of Shame, how does a black woman voicing her feelings about alienation “discriminate, disenfranchise, and exclude” you? If a black woman saying “I was disrespected by black men” is enough to make you feel disenfranchised, then you just need to develop a thicker skin.
I understand that your experience has been colored by your status as a black man (you’ve made this quite clear), and I feel bad that you’ve had to go through whatever it was that you did, and I’m not going to say that I’ve been there, because I haven’t. But your feelings of paranoia are irrational, not just against white society, but against Asians and black women as well. Ultimately if you’re going to engage in dialogue, you need to hear other people’s perspectives outside of your own.
minbo
1:25 am | Aug 13, 2007MelaninManson, unfortunately I think that you are getting dogpiled.
I respect that you may have a good relationship with your gf of 8 years and that it is not in any way disrespectful of any ethnicity or culture. I also have to say that your quote “I think I would have gone to jail had someone in Cornell attempted such blatant disrespect towards me just because of my personal life.” read by any reasonable person regardless of ethnicity or sex would more than likely interpret it to be an indication that you were (jokingly or not) going to break the law in a blatant fashion that would land you in jail. NOT call a marathon meeting involving the Black community on a college campus that enjoyed unwarranted uniformed police protection (which did not involve anyone going to jail). Break the law with simple vandalism, harassment, violence, or soemthing else I won’t speculate, but certainly break the law blatantly.
I also think that you are applying the arguments too closely to your personal situation to see that there may be a logic that comes to the conclusion that an Asian advocate in an IR may not be capable to truly represent and advocate for some Asian males. It is not that your logic is wrong. It is not that their logic is right. The issue is that there is an underlying supposition that you disagree upon the truth of.
Your argument appears top me that that freedom of personal choice in personal life is paramount.
Their argument is that in order for an Asian advocate to be able to eequally represent all members of the community and be beyond even a shadow of reprehension, they need to strive to maintain a standard of personal conduct beyond that of a private citizen.
Both stances are idealistic, representing different goal. In practice in the “real world”, “real people” will not be able to be true to either arguments and thus will fall into some pragmatic middle. Personally, I’d just be happy if I could find ANY Asian advocate who is effective enough to rally the majority of the Asian population in America behind them to affect real measurable change within my lifetime that I wouldn’t care if they were in an IR, but I do have to say that Dialectic’s stance, while idealistic is not inherently wrong. I also have to say that I know enough AM to realize that on a pragmatic level, right or wrong, an Asian person (male or female) in an IR will cause enough discord that an Asian person in an IR in the current political and social climate will never be able to effectively represent the majority of Asian people in America.
Lastly, Dialetic is not saying that Asian men can or should dictate who Asian women can have a relationship with. He is saying that he won’t support an Asian advocate for Asian people on a whole if (male or female) if they an IR, or if they are not Asian, he thinks that they make fine private citizens. He is not forcing them to NOT be in an IR, and hopefully whatever Asian person who is in an IR and an advocate is not trying to force him to rally around and support them. Freedom all around for everyone and nobody is entirely happy. You don’t agree with him, he doesn’t agree with you, nobody wins. Anyone can be an Asian advocate in an IR, but don’t look to Dialectic to support them. And he truly believes (with some cause) that he is a moderate position.
CJF
1:35 am | Aug 13, 2007BTW Melanin, I know of Black guys, (don’t bite me for it. you’re the one bringing in your personal race and life) who complain of Asian women who only date white girls.
So what do you think of those guys? It’s not only Asian guys that see this, but people who are black like yourself.
What if your girlfriend was a class whore like those AF who only date WM. She says she never dates blacks. Etc. Is she still an interracial dater?
minbo
1:36 am | Aug 13, 2007One last comment, I know that you are applying Dialectics argument directly to AM controlling who AF can date because of the specific circumstance of your relationship and where this current discussion arose, but please believe me, this has been discussed in a couple threads in the past few years on this site well before this was picked up by any other site, and he applies his no IR for Asian advocates to both AM and AF equally. He is not just applying it to AF.
MelaninManson
10:34 am | Aug 13, 2007“Black feminism is about feeling proud about yourself. … Black women, while being proud of being female, love their race. They love black men. You hear them saying the greatest things about black men. Amy Tan Feminism is about feeling insecure.” - CJF
I disagree. I think Black feminism and Asian feminism are not really the point in this discussion. Black feminism concerns maintaining drive and empowerment among Black women so they can secure their particular interests in this society, similar to Asian American feminism’s impact on Asian American women.
The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame” did not apply a feminist solution to their gripes. Rather, they only served to further divide their community by focusing on their concocted anger about decisions that never concerned them.
Further, this entire debate emerges because of people’s insecurities. I find a person insecure when they pretend that an interracial relationship in which they aren’t personally involved somehow comments on their demographic’s utility as viable dating partners. The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame’ debacle felt personally insulted when Black men dated non-Blacks, and thought the choices those Black men made somehow commented on the desirability of Black women in general. That’s pretty insecure.
Meanwhile, without commenting on Amy Tan, I think it’s safe to say that Asian American feminism features a broader, more socially responsible perspective on Asian American female empowerment than your example suggests. Honestly, I wonder if a major gripe here is that Asian American women today (like Black women since the 1970’s) point out sexism within their cultures and force Asian American men to question themselves.
From the 1980’s through today, Black male academics flatly rejected the notion that cultural Black male sexism caused serious issues for Black women, and I wonder if an eerie parallel hasn’t emerged among Asian American men today. Men of color have to realize that we often benefit from patriarchy and exude misogyny as a part of our daily lives, and that as a consequence, women in our racial communities don’t always have the freedom to make meaningful choices about their lives.
I’m not saying that men of color have to change themselves in any sense, just that we owe it to ourselves to recognize the consequences of our actions. Once we do, we’re in a much stronger position when women in our community put forth irrational demands, like the Black women at Brown posed as they questioned the dating practices of some of their Black male counterparts.
No matter how much sexism and racism has affected a Black woman’s life, I’m under no obligation to date her.
MelaninManson
11:41 am | Aug 13, 2007“The issue is that there is an underlying supposition that you disagree upon the truth of. … I also have to say that I know enough AM to realize that on a pragmatic level, right or wrong, an Asian person (male or female) in an IR will cause enough discord that an Asian person in an IR in the current political and social climate will never be able to effectively represent the majority of Asian people in America.” - Minbo
Minbo, I think your distillation of the basic differences here has merit. Certainly it seems I’ve argued at cross-purposes with most other commenters here. I find Dialectic’s position fundamentally flawed, unworkable, and wrong. For me, the Bayard Rustin example aerates Dialectic’s arguments, as oppressed minority communities can ill afford to reject effective activists because of inconsequential disagreements over the personal lives of those activists.
Given Dialectic’s position, Asian Americans should reject the Helen Zias and Ron Takakis of Asian America, for failing to sexually exude some superficial racial unity. It’s absurd. Dialectic’s argument falls apart on this point, so he’s avoided dealing with it directly.
However Minbo, I don’t disagree with your point that many Asian men today may be unwilling to support an Asian race activist in an interracial relationship. I believe this happens because racial minority communities persist through conservative cultural groupthink, so activists within racial minority communities who date interracially simply need the opportunity to let their utility be judged by what they contribute alone.
We all have biases, and many of those biases aren’t rational, so we should create activist institutions that operate without concern for our biases. Finding fault with a race activist who dates interracially remains an irrational bias that should not be allowed to impede the activism of dedicated race advocates with the best interests of the race at heart.
Given the sexual politics of the Asian American community, I think Dialectic’s position would be applied to Asian American women far more than their male counterparts, because of the sexist vitriol that these conversations usually engender. Thankfully, these recent conversations have been relatively free of such talk.
Dialectic’s argument offers a nuanced version of the same anti-interracial relationships argument heard for decades. I have no doubt that Dialectic believes his position is a moderate one; true believers usually do.
Edwin
12:59 pm | Aug 13, 2007MelaninMason,
You keep bringing up your PENIS, GENITALS, and freedom to copulate into this debate. We get it already but it’s not about that.
People have the freedom of choice to sleep indiscriminately with hundreds of people without protection but it’s morally reprehensible. Just like no one is saying that AFs cannot exclude AMs from their dating pool but to reject one’s own kind is also morally reprehensible and brings legitimate concerns of self-hate into question. In that sense, AMs have every right to criticize them for this. It’s our RIGHT to do so too.
This isn’t about who is having sex with whom but about where the heart lies.
CJF
2:06 pm | Aug 13, 2007“Further, this entire debate emerges because of people’s insecurities. I find a person insecure when they pretend that an interracial relationship in which they aren’t personally involved somehow comments on their demographic’s utility as viable dating partners. The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame’ debacle felt personally insulted when Black men dated non-Blacks, and thought the choices those Black men made somehow commented on the desirability of Black women in general. That’s pretty insecure.”
What message does it send to America when black men refuse to date black women and only date white women? What message does it say blacks think of their own women?
It says that the women of their race are so incompetent that they would outright refuse to date their own race. It sends a message and makes your people look divided.
So what happens when you have somebody like Seal, who is with a white girl and I doubt he’s ever been with a black girl (well, lets assume for the sake of discourse)…lets imagine him trying to rally a group of black people. Half are black men. Half are black women. He starts saying, WE SHOULD BE PROUD OF OUR RACE…yet he openly avoids dating his race and continuing on his race by mating with a black woman.
See the irony? It’s his right to go white. But once you go white, you have little to say in the realm of Black or Asian activism because you yourself are denying your own people of the most basic thing of reproduction, and saying that a white or white man are more suit to reproduce.
“Meanwhile, without commenting on Amy Tan, I think it’s safe to say that Asian American feminism features a broader, more socially responsible perspective on Asian American female empowerment than your example suggests. Honestly, I wonder if a major gripe here is that Asian American women today (like Black women since the 1970’s) point out sexism within their cultures and force Asian American men to question themselves. ”
Sexism within our own cultures?
I know for Asian cultures, it is more often the woman who is head of the household. It is the woman who is the boss. Actually, for about 80% of the Asian moms I know, they control the families moreso than the men do. And the same thing happens when they go marry a white guy is they take control of the family and make most major decisions.
What we argue on this site is there is a huge MYTH created that Asian men are somehow “cold” and “abusive” and “violent” towards their wives. If you are trying to suggest that, then back up your notion with statistical evidence.
If you don’t provide statistics, than I don’t know how to put this kindly, but you gotta shut up. You’re perpetuating a myth without base on a site that is trying to kill these myths and I recommend you go to an Amy Tan site if you really believe the myths are true.
“rom the 1980’s through today, Black male academics flatly rejected the notion that cultural Black male sexism caused serious issues for Black women, and I wonder if an eerie parallel hasn’t emerged among Asian American men today. Men of color have to realize that we often benefit from patriarchy and exude misogyny as a part of our daily lives, and that as a consequence, women in our racial communities don’t always have the freedom to make meaningful choices about their lives.”
This post really makes me question whether you are even black. Again, backup your statements. Minority Women don’t have meaningful choices about their lives? Again, STATISTICS.
And again, you are also implying that because minority women are bad, that white women or white men are a better alternative. Your implication is white men and women aren’t abusive. White men and women aren’t domineering or violent. White men and women are perfect angels.
Your whole post right there was filled with a lot of perpetuated myths that you didn’t back up at all with any factual evidence. And your whole post was to bluntly put it a post to kiss the ass cheeks of the white race.
Dialectic
5:11 pm | Aug 13, 2007Just skimmed some more.
I’m not sure if I would describe my stance, minbo, as “idealistic.” I’m simply saying that advocates who disagree with my position are dismissing a moral responsibility by attacking my position as immoral, which it is not.
My next piece clarifies the point further, and also addresses the American obsession with freedom (for me and not you!).
Senkeh
4:26 pm | Aug 16, 2007“The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame” did not apply a feminist solution to their gripes. Rather, they only served to further divide their community by focusing on their concocted anger about decisions that never concerned them.
Further, this entire debate emerges because of people’s insecurities. I find a person insecure when they pretend that an interracial relationship in which they aren’t personally involved somehow comments on their demographic’s utility as viable dating partners. The Black women at Brown involved in the ‘Wall of Shame’ debacle felt personally insulted when Black men dated non-Blacks, and thought the choices those Black men made somehow commented on the desirability of Black women in general. That’s pretty insecure.” –MelaninManson
Before I start, I believe we all agree that the “Wall of Shame” tactic was inappropriate; however, the REASON for doing it was valid and therefore the main point here.
First, I have to agree with the Asian gentlemen here. When whole groups of people are being passed over, it actually does concern them. Of course, not on an individual coupe-to-couple basis; but when the overwhelming numbers of black men and Asian women are latching onto whites are baffling social scientists (and dating services) across America, then black women and Asian men have every right to voice criticism.
I don’t think insecurity is the problem here–at least not on the part of black women and Asian men. Some of you have read a post of mine in which I explained that black women score the highest on self-esteem tests, compared to other women. We know we’re just as desirable as all other women. This is precisely the reason why black women feel insulted when time and again men of their own race pass them over for white women. Or when other men are hesitant to date them because their own men don’t seem to want them, and because black men seeking white women have been known to openly badmouth black women in order to score more points. If several black men want to date white women, and don’t think that it’s anyone else’s business, that’s fine…but they’re actually making our business when they start blasting black women in front of their white girlfriend and all her friends and relatives. In doing so, they hinder our chances of finding romance with men of other races, and getting on with our own lives. Same with Asian men; it doesn’t help when an Asian girl is sitting with a bunch of whites and blasting men of her own race just to show her boyfriend how loyal she is to him.
Americans have grown fond of the saying, “Well, there’s always going to be stupid people” as a response to anyone who makes a valid complaint about society. This saying implies that we are talking about one village idiot here and another there, but all it really does is try to hide from the fact that we are talking about whole sections of the population–and that is a major complaint of black women and Asian men.
I personally have no special affinity for black men, but every black man in this country that I have ever met or gotten to know (including my own father, folks) has treated white women with more kindness, respect and appreciation than they have me–even when I’m standing right there with my white girlfriends (and even when I have more class and education). So I can understand the damage that it does to my fellow black women who experience the same thing daily and have been for years.
The same with Asian men. Asian men don’t actually think of themselves as being inferior to any other men, but they have every right feel insulted when they are presumed as such by everyone else. Most Asian men are given just one glance over right before they are permanently dismissed by women. I have asked several white (and Asian) girls why they ignored the appreciative glance of an Asian man without even so much as learning his name, and they’ve never really had a valid reason for it. And the ones that did try to give me reasons gave me the all stereotypical ones: “I hear they’re cruel, I hear they’re stingy, I hear they’re unaffectionate.” Another horrifying one I’ve often heard is, “Well, it’s just that Asian men are generally considered unattractive.” This implies that the girl would consider a nice, normal Asian guy if society just wasn’t breathing down her neck. Same with black women; I read Vahz’s post about how he found black women to be perfectly wonderful, but that he feared the stigma far too much to actually marry one.
Now, what Dialectic and others are stressing is that what adds insult to injury is when an Asian women is sympathizing with them on these issues, but is married to or dating a white guy. It’s no different from when a black man sympathizes with black women (and I have met several of these) but then shoves us aside the minute a white girl walks by, or acts like he doesn’t know us when he’s chatting up a white woman. Such people are in no position to preach racial pride and unity. I read on mixedmedia.org how an Asian woman married to a white guy put up a website displaying and praising sexy Asian men, assuring them that Asian women found them desirable. She thought she was paying them SUCH a great compliment. You could practically hear her patting herself on her back.
As for feminism, I’m a black feminist and sociologist and I would say that the modern black feminist movement focuses on self-reliance and sisterhood, so that in time we can get rid of that “needing a strong black man” nonsense which has caused us a LOT of trouble. However, I have read four (and own three) of Amy Tan’s books and I definitely have to agree with the Asian gentlemen here; that woman provides NO young, strong, responsible, respectable, sexy and overall wonderful Asian male characters–ever. The main female protagonist always finds solace in the arms of a white guy, she never masters her native tongue (nor tries to), she makes no real effort to learn about her family history (she’s constantly running from it), she speaks of her relatives with mistrust and ridicule, and she’s always rolling her eyes at her own culture. If that’s not bad enough, Amy Tan has been placed as some great messianic feminist figure, when in fact should be held at least partially responsible for inspiring Asian American women of all ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds to marry outside their race at all costs (and then, as Dialectic once wrote, be disappointed when their babies don’t have blue eyes).
evil_FUX
3:55 am | Aug 17, 2007^Nice post Senkeh.
JadeDragon
11:16 am | Aug 17, 2007Great post, Senkeh. =) We enjoy hearing your perpective on issues (as evidenced by the black dating thread), and I’m glad that you’ve joined us.
Dialectic
11:27 am | Aug 17, 2007Thanks for your comments, Senkeh.
The site you mention was put up a few years ago, I think shortly after we went up. While the founder certainly had good intentions, at least on some level, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that some Asian men would have found her to be pretty condescending and questioned her motives.
For those who might not have heard of it, Toni Morrison’s The Bluest Eye is, incidentally, an excellent novel about the effect of colonialism and, among other things, notions of white beauty on Black communities.
afterdark
6:30 am | Aug 18, 2007Came across this site through Jenn’s Reappropriate blog. Been reading the articles here on and off for over a week now. I thought I’d post a link to an NYT article on race and dating with some interesting reader comments that reflect those made by Senkeh. Take care all.
afterdark
6:31 am | Aug 18, 2007It’s late. Forgot the link. And apologies if some of you might have read it already when it was first published.
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-seeking-same-race-male/
Senkeh
4:50 pm | Aug 21, 2007You know, I read that article and the million comments after it and I gotta say…black folks better beware of opening that “our-own-men-don’t-treat-us-right-so-we’ll-just-date-white-men” door. Because once you so much as crack it open, it’s a tough one to close. And black men just might not like the consequences a few years down the line.
nskripchun
4:40 pm | Aug 27, 2007Senkeh>
Great post and thanks for contributing to the conversation… I really appreciated reading what you had to say.
sheeks
5:39 am | Sep 07, 2007hello fighting 44,
senkeh you hit the nail on the head. great post!!!!
PhoenixRisen
9:41 pm | Sep 10, 2007As a Black female I don’t agree with the methods of the women in the article. But I whole heartedly agree with the sentiments although I’m more frustrated than hurt. I know straight up that a LOT of black men find the lightes brightest black woman they can find and then she’s not enough so they straight up go White. It is is horribly frustrating to be subjected to Aryan standards of beauty when you see so much beauty in your own and other races that Whites themselves try and adapt (but of course translate it into an Aryan ideal). A lot of my and other black womens frustration comes from the lack of QUALITY men for Black women. As the article pointed out there already is a lack of educated men for educated women and when many Black men try to “date up” it does way more than ruffle your feathers.
One of the above posters asked in essence what were Black women bringing to the table. That right there leads me to believe that they have been swayed by many stereotypes of Black women. I can tell you that myself and most other Black women I know are working, educated and doing better than the Black men around. It’s hard enough to find a Black male without a rap sheet as long as your arm (and I don’t say that lightly I mean it quite literaly. We sit around and laugh about it but it’s not a laughing matter). When you see the few who do meet your standards running after White women who weigh more than you, have less education, seem to have less interest but have a head full of blonde hair to fling(you may even have more but it ain’t straight and blonde) getting these men it can drive you to do some pretty thoughtless things out of emotion. Many Asian men have mentioned seeing pretty Asian women with overweight, hairy white guys. They know how we feel. I think that was the point of putting up the article.
Thaihorse
10:43 pm | Nov 20, 2007This was a very interesting article and very interesting set of comments following it. The bottom line is that race and sex is at the heart of this argument, and we all see it in those terms, whether we’ll ever admit it or not.
I know that it is a fact that more black women are attending college than black men. It is also a fact that beyond college more black women will be working and living in environments where they will likely interact exclusively with white men. If a black woman begins a relationship with a white man in these circumstances am I supposed to hate her for that? And if she does support black organizations and helps people less fortunate than herself and I supposed to question her “blackness” because of whom she shares her bed with?
This society was built on racisim and every society has elements of racisim. Anyone living in the U.S. is aware of it, it practically starts from the crib. No one wants to feel rejected and I understand why the women in the article felt that way. We judge and interpret everything that happens to us based on race and on the race of the person doing or saying whatever it is we are reacting to. I think we all have had negative reactions to interracial dating at one time or another (I know I have) but I also know that if two consenting adults decide that they want to be together, it’s really none of my business, no matter how I feel about it. Ultimately, the only relationship I want to be concerned about is my own.
This society (our government, media, co-workers etc.) is fixated on race and sex. We care about who is sleeping with who and if they are the same color or not. It’s just reality and it’s the way it is. I honestly don’t think we’ll ever have truly rational discussions about this because it hits too close to home. People have their own minds and desires and ultimately they will do what they want. You can initially be attracted to someone physically or emotionally, but in my opinion, the relationship won’t last unless you both really have things on common and want and need the same things. If it’s simply based on sex, you won’t be able to stay in bed forever and you’ll see each others faults. In a real relationship you’ll see each others faults too, but you’ll also see the things that drew you to that person in the first place.
We all are meant to have companionship and I wish that for everyone. It may be with someone of the same race as you, or it might not be. In any case, when people are happy and content in their own relationships, they don’t have the time or desire to worry about other people’s relationships. I’m looking forward to joining that club someday.
nekohead
8:33 am | Dec 14, 2007Thank the LORD that my Big brother ONLY brought home BLACK Females. I have White friends. BUT, I don’t think I could take it if my brother dated a NON- Black women..”
Yes, my husband is NON-BLACK. But, he is NOT White. Well, ok.. he is White and Korean. That means ASIAN to Whites…” I could never do that to my daddy, brother or the rest of my family, by geting married to a White male.
My White friends are MARRIED to White partners.
Thaihorse
11:17 pm | Dec 17, 2007I know that there are a lot of Black/White couples here in the US and while I have met some very nice and attractive White women, because of the deeply ingrained racist history of this country I must admit that I have a natural distrust of most White people. I can easily see myself dating someone outside of my race, who is also not White. I am confident that my family would accept whomever I brought home (even a White person) as long as I was happy and we both treated each other well. I still think that if two consenting adults decide to fall in love and have a relationship together, that the ultimate approval for the relationship belongs with THEM, not society or even your immediate family. Of course there are always situations of inapporprite relationships (ie. a 40 year old man dating a 15 year old girl, a Jewish girl dating a rabid neo-nazi etc.) but that’s not the kind of relationships we are talking about here. I just believe that if your parents raised you right and they trust and respect you and you feel the same way about them, then you will pick someone who is suitable for you and they will accept your decision and be happy for you.
chocolatebutterfly
3:00 pm | Jan 08, 2008This is so sad but it is not unexpected.. I was seeing a Japanese guy and the looks we would get walking down the street, or the comments were just horrible. Unfortunately we do not live in a society where you are free to love whomever you choose, it does come with a price. As a Black Woman who dates outside of my race quite often I have been privvy to some pretty nasty things. My way of dealing with it is to just keep doing what im doing. I am not going to let society choose who I am attracted to or who I should be in love with.. I don’t specifically say ok I am only going to date Asian Men or White Men, or Jewish Men etc. What I say is that I want to meet someone that I can bond with, share my time with and love….He could be Green for all I care!
Thaihorse
1:50 pm | Jan 20, 2008I appreciate your honesty and your courage. We are all unique individuals and for whatever reason the fellow human beings you are finding a connection with are not the same race race as you. There’s nothing wrong with that, you are who you are and you like what you like. I have always had a deep interest in Asia and Asian culture and I have been aware of this since I was a teenager. Growing up in a racially segregated city like Chicago made it practically impossible for me to date outside of my race and I spent many years alone rather than to try to be something I was not. I know who I am and I love who I am. Because I also feel a connection to a people or culture outside of my own does not mean I reject myself, my people or my culture. We are all multidimensional and can only reach our full potential when we are not “boxed in” to the limitations certain parts of society try to impose on us all. Because of my interest in Asia and Asian culture I feel that being with someone from that culture will increase my chances of fully exploring and expressing my interests and feelings. I once met a woman who is half African-American half Japanese and she was the best of both worlds, a beautiful Black woman who speaks fluent Japanese (thanks to her mother). She was too young for me, otherwise I would have definitely pursued her. I guess what I am saying is that if I met a woman of any race who 1. Has a deep interest in the same things that I do, 2. I can form a strong mutual bond with and 3. Is either already in Asia or is willing to spend some time there with me, then she is the woman for me. And once I find her I will never let others who have nothing to do with our relationship dictate the terms of our lives. I hope that you will find what you are looking for and that you both will not let others come between you.
NICENURSE
9:55 pm | Jan 28, 2008As a black woman, I must say I do not care who black men date. It is there decision as well as mine to date whomever I please. I do hate it when black men say they date outside of their race because black women are to loud, not supportive and have too much attitude.Black men have just as much attitude as any woman. I feel that given our history blacks have endured alot. Black women especially. For the most part black women are in the homes raising the children, working and going to school without the help of black men. I would think you would develop a little bit of tough skin. I also hear black men saying that we don’t stick by them. Well I know so many black women, way too many. Who will stick by brothers through thick and and thin. Jail, no job, on drugs, living in yo moma basement, cheating, lots of kids, the list goes on. ALot of black women feel obligated to stick by black men because they feel that black men get treated badly by society. Even if these sisters are miserable they stand by these brothers. I get sick of black men whining about us about society and not doing anything about it, but whining. It is a total turn off. I know it sounds like bashing. These are just facts. Situations I have seen and been in. I myself used to think it was my duty as a black woman to not abandon black men. WHile there were guys who liked me and whom I was attracted to but ignoring becaue they were not black. To hell with that. Black men don’t feel the same about us. And I damn sure no longer feel the same about them. I can be supportive in my community without tying myself to a mate with the same pigment as myself. Black women need to wake up. Broaden your horizens and know that black men are not the only ones out there.
As for you Asian brothers. I am kind of shocked that you have problems with women. You guys are some of the most attractive on the planet. Most of you are educated, smart, successful and usually very respectful. I know alot of black women who are very attracted to asian men. Lots. Successful too.
Thaihorse
1:17 am | Feb 01, 2008It took me a while to decide if I wanted to write anything more on this topic. Needless to say there are many problems between men and women and in the Black community and both sides have their reasons for feeling bitter about it.
The main issue or point of this discussion to me is the fact that people of all races have the capacity to be attracted to people outside of their race. For many people, this presents the problem of trying to justify why you feel the way you do, in this case, Black men are no good, Black women are not supporting us, etc. I think everyone has had at least one bad dating experience or relationship with someone of their own race. Does that mean that everyone else should be judged in the same way?
The fact that African-Americans are here on this site, discussing this says that there are those of us who are attracted to people of a different race and culture and want to explore those possibilities. I am definitely attracted to Asian women but I would never fool myself into thinking that they are inherently better than a Black woman or a woman of any race. I’m attracted to what I see on the outside and there are things I like and admire about their culture and there are intangibles that I won’t even try to explain here, but the fact remains that any Asian woman I will be in a relationship with is still fundamentally a fellow imperfect, flawed human being, just like me.
The media and our imagination gives us a concept of what the other race must be like. There are lots of negative images of Black men and women and lots of positive images of Asian women and men and their culture. I watch a lot of Asian films and I like them because they give you a picture of everyday life in different countries and shows the good and bad as well as the current social issues of the moment. Two Korean films that I saw recently were “Oldboy” and “Bad Guy”. These films were very interesting and very dark in their subject matter, including a man turning a young woman into a prostitute simply because she looked down on him in public. I definitely didn’t walk away from these films thinking all Korean men were violent or that all Korean women were prostitutes, I know that all Asians are not rocket scientists or martial arts experts. They are simply people who want and need the same things things that we all do, love, acceptance, a sense of purpose and meaning in our lives, to be happy and fulfilled.
If someone finds that they can achieve this with someone outside of their race does that make them bad or a failure? Do they have to justify their feelings to the world or to themselves? Do they have to put down others of their own race to explain or justify their supposed rejection of them?
I usually come to these forums for the sake a meaningful discussion, I don’t expect to agree with everything people have to say, it’s good the be in a place where you can express yourself and not feel judged all the time. But with some subjects and some people, the only thing you’ll be able to do in the end is to agree to disagree. I find myself feeling very frustrated and disappointed with the state of affairs in most Black communities in this country. I find it very difficult to find like-minded Black people to spend time with and to relate to on things. I have grown to the point where I know I would like to spend a few years living outside of the U.S. if I get the chance. But I will never say that all Black women aren’t any good or that I couldn’t find one to settle down with if I really tried. Right now my interest in in Asia and Asian women. It’s not a judgement or reflection on anyone else, its just where I am at this time. Why do so many people have a problem with that?
RebelAzn
8:03 pm | Feb 14, 2008I just read this thread.
Senkeh - Thank you for some great comments. Your presence is most welcome on this forum.
NICENURSE - Thank you for some nice comments. One of the main reasons why Asian men are mad because we are being constantly portrayed in negative light in the media while the reality is opposite. Most of us speak multiple languages fluently, are highly educated and doing well financially. However, it is not so if you watch us on TV. I think years of negative images have had a very negative effect on the Asian American community as a whole.
I must say I do understand where black women from Brown are coming from. I am not sure their method is the best, but their frustration is understandable. Until this country wakes up and celebrate beauties of all people other than white, we gonna continue to have these issues. My only recommendation is for minorities to travel worldwide and see places outside America. I do feel sometimes living here can really screw with our minds.
Thaihorse
4:12 pm | Feb 15, 2008I do agree with your suggestion to travel outside of this country. I really have enjoyed visiting Vancouver B.C. and I am thinking seriously about trying to immigrate there after I complete my graduate degree. African-Americans have a unique and painful history in this country because of its racist foundations, and one of the legacies of this is our disconnection from our roots and from each other. I have hope that younger people and the upcomming generations will be able to move beyond the past, but for most of the rest of us, we likely won’t fully heal until we can live in a totally different environment. In hindsight, this thread is likely more concerned with the feelings of black women and asian men and my comments probably did not add anything constructive to the conversation. One thing that we all have in common is that we all feel like we have been misjudged by some segment of society at large and are looking for acceptance and validation.
valleydude
12:26 pm | Feb 21, 2008Given that the article is about 12 years old, I wonder with hindsight whether the particular women who were angry in this article still are, and whether maybe they have been able to find good men and move on in their lives. A lot changes with time, including attitudes and perspective on what is important and what is worth getting angry about.
When you’re 18 or 19, you think you know it all, and make some pretty big extrapolations based on your immediate surroundings and circumstances about what your future might hold, in many cases conclusions that turn out to be wrong.
For example — during the 90s, when I was in high school and college, there was a big jump in the number of white girls who were suddenly attracted to black guys, largely because of a shift in pop culture towards hip hop and gangsta rap, and a political climate in the 80s and 90s that seemed to promote black America and multiculturalism in general. As a white male (even one living in a cosmopolitan and multi-cultural area with friends of all races), it felt threatening, like BM’s were stealing the white girls. There was also a lot of furor about affirmative action, with protesters trying to get it reinstated in California state universities. For a young WM with little life experience, it looked like dating options were being eliminated, and that forces were conspiring to disenfranchise us for things we had no control over.
In hindsight, our fears were unwarranted. Though there were exceptions, most of the girls who liked BM’s were not the type of girls WM’s liked, or at least my and my friends’ tastes. To be clear, I’m not saying there was anything wrong with these girls, just that we all have our particular strange tastes in what we like in a woman, and these did not fit the bill for what a lot of us wanted. We were just bitter because we weren’t getting laid at the time (all of the bitter guys I talked to were without girlfriend, including myself), and once we did finally get a GF, we pretty much forgot the issue.
I wonder if this is also the case with some of the AM ire on the IR dating issue. For those that are angry, at what age did you get angry about the issue, and what was going on in your life? Do you really want the AF that you saw walking with the WM, or are you just mad they found someone and you didn’t? If you thought a girl was a loser or not so great-looking, but you didn’t have a GF at the time, I could see how it would sting if she hooks up and you don’t. My experience was that the particular AF’s I dated were not particularly in demand with their own ethnicity or community, nor was I — we were a good match, because we were both lonely and underappreciated.
On some level (and I hate to say this here, because I don’t want to create a shitstorm, and I’m very aware what type of forum I am on here), there is some arrogance to think that because someone looks like you or has the same background, you should have first shot at them. As a blond male, do I automatically have first dibs on all blonde WF’s? If I said (and I say this only for example, not out of actual personal opinion) I felt it was better for WFs to marry WMs in order to preserve the race (especially given the low number of natural blondes in America), would that not sound racist? Don’t we see talk show after talk show that make it very clear “white only” attitudes are regressive and not compatible with social justice? So then why should “_____” only attitudes be exempt?
This is why I sometimes am puzzled when AM’s pull the “just trying to preserve the bloodline” argument in the IR disparity threads — If a white family said this openly, they would be reviled. This is kind of old-country thinking, typical of immigrant families (which means pretty much we all had that in our family at some point, such as my grandparent’s generation) but no less antiquated because of it. Generally this clashes with the American experience, that people come, get assimilated, retain some of their culture (St. Patrick’s Day, Columbus Day, Chinese New Year), but also embrace an overall American culture and values. Without this, you end up like the former Yugoslavia — all these little factions fighting about who is better and who gets to culturally dominate who. Look at Kosovo, see our future if we don’t mesh.
So anyways, I wish there had been a follow up article now, because I would be curious to see if maybe some of the women decided that BM basketball players weren’t the only eligible dates on campus, and that maybe some of the BM nerds and quiet types who actually had IQs to match theirs (unlike the B-Ball players, who I found to be pretty arrogant and lazy-minded at UCLA) were good candidates after all. There are a lot of fish in the sea, and to set yourself on just one small group (black superathletes) is to set yourself up for disappointment. There are no rules in the mating game, evolution has proven that. It’s just who can procreate with what partners accept them. We can’t all live the idealized life we envisioned when we were 13 years old. And sometimes people get tired of waiting on people of their choice within their race to wake up and appreciate them, so they open up their tastes and date other folks who are just as qualified. Isn’t that what cultural desegregation is about?
Senkeh
3:40 pm | Feb 21, 2008Valleydude, I think you misunderstood.
This isn’t about the arrogance of having “dibs” or “first shots.” This is about whole sections of a racial group rejecting their own ON SIGHT. At the psychological level, the damage is scary. At the the sociological level, the damage is astounding.
Also, white guys of this country have no idea of what it means to be truly threatened at the dating level. I mean, sure, the early 90s may have caused a cold splash of fear, but that is nothing compared to continual rejection, stigma, and betrayal by female writers wearing the same skin as they (*cough* Amy Tan *cough*). White American men don’t know what it’s like to feel invisible, or to be perpetually portrayed in film as the idiot, the nerd, the asexual nice guy, or the non-English-speaking (albeit ass-kicking) warrior. White guys don’t have whole myths built about them being inadequate lovers. Granted, the steady rise and dominance of hip-hop culture may make white men think they’re threatened by black men, but with all the Latinas, Asian, and now black women looking to white guys for some sort of sexual/financial/house-with-a-white-picket-fence salvation, white guys are in no current danger whatsoever of have to go without. So with all due respect, the example you gave, IMO, is gravely insufficient. I admire your attempt to sympathize, though.
Read about Chinese-American history, for example, and start from the very beginning. VERY different story.
valleydude
4:10 pm | Feb 21, 2008I hear you. I used to see it with my AM friend when we were both losers in high school — he was good-looking, in good shape, yet clearly not in the running or an option for most WFs at my school, and he knew it. (Interestingly, he was not at all into AFs, so maybe that is direct evidence of the spread of colonial mindsets and brainwashing). Even with us being at the same low social status at that school (largely due to our shyness and lack of maturity), I got tons more attention than him from women and teachers, clearly due to that invisibility. When he died early at 19, no one else from my high school except another of the loser crew and his brother’s friends came (though everyone knew, from conversations with those same classmates later). Disgraceful.
So yeah, I do totally see that there is a lot more of the issue than what pokes above the water. I do know that I felt just like you did. The fact that white male-ness on a whole had not experienced it like that historically did not make it sting any less when it was my generation that was experiencing the temporary perceived loss of power or dating ability. I also see that despite that, I was making excuses for myself, not focusing on the positive, on improving myself and not giving off negativity (women hate negativity). I also was in fact turning down opportunities from women outside of my then ideal, instead of seeing their beauty and being able to work with the racial issues.
Someone I know from a couple of workplaces ago was an example of how sometimes it just doesn’t matter — AM, not attractive at all (warts on his face, not rich or in a prestigious occupation, bad complexion, short, kindy stubby), married to the most gorgeous redhead I had ever seen, 2 kids, happy life. I’m not suggesting the WF is a great prize to be had, btw, just that this woman was beautiful enough to overcome pretty much anyone’s taste preferences, including me (not into WF). He got her likely because he is A) friendly and engaging B) a nice and helpful guy and C) not a cheating scumbag. This woman I’m sure had her pick of the litter, lived in a predominantly white area, yet still chose the person who best suited her personality and needs despite the cosmetic. I do see your point though in that he seems to be a lot nicer to white people, and more snarky with Asians (including viciously teasing a Filipino coworker). I used to think this was because he was more comfortable with that group, teasing like an older brother, but maybe it is the opposite, an extention of the racial pecking order and a form of oppression.
Senkeh
10:05 pm | Feb 21, 2008Valleydude, I’m a chick.
elduderino
7:02 pm | Jun 18, 2008I don’t think that this compares very much to the asian situation because the main problem here is that there are way more black women than black men in college: “The discrepancy is even wider nationally. About 900,000 black women were enrolled in undergraduate and graduate programs at colleges and universities in 1994, compared with 550,000 black men, according to the U.S. Department of Education.” So if black women are only looking to date black men at college then their chances are about 50% worse than Asian men trying to date Asian women right off the bat because of the numbers. That problem does not exist so much in the Asian community if I am not mistaken.
analogisnumberone
5:46 pm | Jul 03, 2008As an AM, it’s obvious to me that Black females and AMs have a lot of common ground in the racist pecking order. The real work is to turn this shared experience into some kind of political action. The woman posting the “wall of shame” practiced a political action that is only available to the disenfranchised, and always is legitimate. I hope to see more of that kind of behavior as time goes by. For the white girlfriend who feels hurt: welcome to racism. It’s a taste of what non-whites lived with for centuries.
Senkeh
8:16 pm | Nov 06, 2008“For the white girlfriend who feels hurt: welcome to racism. It’s a taste of what non-whites lived with for centuries.”
Heheheheheheheh.
KatLaw
5:15 pm | Dec 05, 2008I stumbled upon this discussion to get a better perspective on how people feel about the issue of interracial dating and if people had some advice about how to better handle family members that do not approve of interracial dating but I am deeply disturbed by where this discussion has ended up and hurt by people’s closed-minded approach to the concerns of others. This post is mostly regarding the last post from analogisnumberone.
I am a person in an interracial relationship. I never had a preference or refused to date someone because of their race. I fell in love with and chose to be with a black man, not because I want to steal him from black women or because I think he fits into some imaginary mold that is a “black man.” I just see him for who he is and that person is compatible with me.
It is hard for both sides to be in an interracial relationship. Everyday I struggle with my family’s inability to accept my relationship. The comments and the looks are given to both partners equally and I do not believe it is fair to either person to be criticized for choosing who they want to be with. While I can sympathize with the people that feel like they are being shunned or ignored or portrayed negatively, it is no excuse to lash out at others. If you are upset how society portrays you, then do something about it. Set an example, be better than that, break the mold. Don’t complain about others stealing things from you. Many people chose to date outside their races because they are open minded and realize that attractive is attractive regardless of the color of your skin.
I cannot understand why it would be a good thing for someone to feel racism? And just because someone is white, do you think they have never felt ostracized by society? My family members were put into ovens in Germany and put into jail just because and discriminated against even though they were “white.” I came from a country that stamped my passport with the word “Jew” and allowed people to openly discriminate against me because of my nationality and sex. So saying “For the white girlfriend who feels hurt: welcome to racism. It’s a taste of what non-whites lived with for centuries.” is just completely ignorant to me.
nightshade
6:33 pm | Dec 05, 2008I just love lectures from people whose love transcends all!
Senkeh
9:46 pm | Dec 05, 2008Does anyone else recall the part where this discussion is about populations and social trends, not individuals? Why is it that in America, when people want to discuss a social problem, some commentators try to make it all about themselves and ultimately portray themselves as victims? Isn’t that attitude what got MelaninManson into trouble?
I was under the impression that this discussion isn’t about those FOR whom others are shunned, but those BEING shunned and those guilty of the shunning. In the plainest words, commentators ought to focus on these questions: WHY DO SOME BLACK MEN AND SOME ASIAN WOMEN AUTOMATICALLY REJECT MEMBERS OF THEIR OWN RACE? WHAT’S UP WITH THE SELF-HATE? WHAT’S WITH THE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ONE’S OWN? WHAT ARE THE PSYCHOLOGICAL AND SOCIOLOGICAL RAMIFICATIONS OF THIS DISCRIMINATION?
analogisnumberone had a good point. This new me-me-me rant simply backs up what he wrote. On another thread I once stated something to the effect of: Don’t come to threads which discuss non-white people’s problems and flip it to make it all about YOU. It’s tacky, and it makes you appear all the more ethnocentric and self-indulgent.
Stay on the topic. Asian men. Black women. Discriminated against. DISCUSS.
KatLaw
11:13 am | Dec 08, 2008Actually, it has nothing to do with me. I was just pointing out how certain comments are useless and ignorant and used personal experience to express my opinion. Negative attitudes that attack others are useless and bring nothing a discussion.
I do not think I am a victim, but I don’t think it is right for people to criticize others for who they choose to date. Why is it that if someone chooses to date outside their race, they are automatically shunning their own and why is it necessarily discrimating against their own and self-hate? Maybe if you actually read my pervious post, my comment was “If you are upset how society portrays you, then do something about it. Set an example, be better than that, break the mold. Don’t complain about others stealing things from you. Many people chose to date outside their races because they are open minded and realize that attractive is attractive regardless of the color of your skin.”
And what is a non-white person problem? I mean aren’t we discussing interracial couples??? Or is it how white people are stealing our men and women? And let’s complain and look for a scape goat for out problems…
jaehwan
2:19 pm | Dec 08, 2008“If you are upset how society portrays you, then do something about it. Set an example, be better than that, break the mold. Don’t complain about others stealing things from you.”
If someone stole something from you, you’re telling me you wouldn’t complain?
KatLaw
6:20 pm | Dec 08, 2008A- I don’t think that anyone is “stealing” anything from anyone. But that is the message I am getting from some of the posts.
B- Just because someone chooses to date outside of their race, doesn’t mean that the person was stolen from a same race partner… that is just ridiculous.
C- No one is entitled to a relationship with anyone else (same race or not). In order for something to be stolen, it must be yours in the first place. If someone is not chosing to date you, then they aren’t yours and therefore cannot be stolen away.
Which is why I am not understanding all the complaining. If you are married and someone steals your husband, yes you have a right to complain but then again maybe not since people aren’t property…
evil_FUX
6:39 pm | Dec 08, 2008Hi Katlaw, thanks and welcome for engaging in discussion on the 44s.
In regards to your misunderstanding, have you read comment #39 by Senkeh? I believe that may shed some light to your questions.
If not please continue and ask. Your questions will help others not entirely familiar with this discussion.
KatLaw
6:56 pm | Dec 08, 2008evil_FUX, I just read Senkeh’s comment more closely and I do understand how certain people can be upset when they are being “passed” over as a whole but is that really what is going on in society? And if so, why insult and blame the white girlfriend of the black male or the white boyfriend of the asian female? How did they steal anyone? Maybe what I am not understanding is why it is being discussed on such a huge scale here because when I look around I see many same sex Asian and Black couples walking around. The percentage of interracial couples in this country is something like 6-7% of the total population, which means the rest of the population is dating same race partners…
tokyolovestory
8:18 pm | Dec 08, 2008KatLaw-
I’m not really sure about the exact statistics but I believe the point being addressed here might be this: out of the 6-7% you cite of the total population engaged in IR relationships, how big of a piece do white male/Asian female, and black male/white female relationships take up? And is it more than they, proportionally, should?
ETA: From the tiny bit of research I just did, about 5% of marriages in the U.S. (in 2006) were interracial. But, the two pairings talked about here (WM/AF and BM/WF) are far more common (far more common) than their opposites.
Senkeh
12:28 am | Dec 14, 2008Let me be clear: this wasn’t about stealing and scapegoating. This was about non-whites devaluing other non-whites, and more specifically, members of their own race. That’s a non-white problem, and there’s no “scapegoat” there. This isn’t about (or at least it shouldn’t be about) blaming white people.
The “white girl” in that instance is not to be blamed; however, when she goes into situation that isn’t specifically about her, makes herself appear the victim of that situation (which still isn’t about her), then she’s asking for blame–the blame that comes with ignoring the stated original problem and insisting on talking about her.
The people being blamed and insulted in this particular discussion are the people of color who have turned their backs on their fellow people of color and without valid reason. We are not analyzing these people at the individual level, but at a demographic level. Think of it as a community concern; self-hate is a dangerous trend in ALL communities of color.
Now, if a white girl wants to be angry about something, she should be angry about this: a man of color who, say, dates/marries a white woman not for love, understanding, and long-term companionship, but because he sees her as some sort of status symbol, as though she were a living, breathing fashion accessory. Yeah, she oughtta be angry about THAT.
byallie63
5:42 am | Dec 22, 2008Since Senkeh pointed out some questions that aren’t answered, let me deal with them.
First, BW need to stop using the argument about self-hate. It is not the right of BW to tell BM their psychological state. Who are people to tell me, or many of my other black male friends at my school who feel strongly on this issue, that we hate
ourselves because we do not prefer black women? If self-hate is something that is about one SELF, that it is not for OTHERS to make such a diagnosis, is it? Self-hate is just another form of lame, unwarranted/unprovable name calling that BW rely on to kill dialogue. That argument is unpersuasive to the very BM they want to get on their sides.
I haven’t heard anyone answer the point about the importance of talking WITH vs TO black men on this issue. IF you want empathy, ask black men why they chose the non-black partners they did and LISTEN to their responses. I have these conversations and here is what I am told:
1., and the MOST common: “Black women are never interested in me. White women are.”
2. “They don’t seem to want my attention–they roll their eyes at me, refuse to go on dates with me, or tell me I’m just a friend.”
3. “They told me I’m not tall/skinny/muscled/athletic enough.”
Seriously, these are men who are very reliable, family oriented, and BW biased in their dating choices (including myself).
NOt a single person critiquing Melanin or others sharing his point of view account for the RESPONSIBILITY that black women have in this situation for the men THEY CHOOSE to date with.
I see it all the time on campus: black women who are in environments with lots of attractive, smart, super ambitious black men who then declare to their friends loudly (wish I were exaggerating) ‘they aren’t tall enough?”
You can’t have it both ways: you cannot just target the black male basketball players, rap stars, super hot guys, and exclude all / many others, and in the same breath complain about scarcity or those same rejected men going to white women or women of other races.
Put simply, no amount of “self-hate” declarations or long diatribes about the insult of black women from being “automatically rejected” accounts for the actions of black women who reject “good black men” ON FACE because they don’t meet certain stereotypical images or requirements for being hot/attractive/exciting, etc.
I’d like to see some black women here (esp the ones trying to rip on Melanin) to take responsibility for their own actions or the actions of other black women
who motivate black men to go elsewhere. This is NOT AN INDIVIDUAL CASE, it is a consistent pattern you hear from very successful black men, especially at the Ivy schools I’ve attended.
On another point I’d like an answer to this question:which so many of the women here ignored: “Why is it EVER acceptable for BW to claim dominion or a moral claim over what a black man does with his penis ? Isn’t that just as wrong as people claiming dominion over black womens’ reproductive labor?” (and yes I do phd work in black feminism, so attempts to pull that card won’t work)
Like seriously, if this is such a big deal, this level of insult, then why don’t you get over it and find people who are interested? Bookish black dudes have to, and I NEVER hear black women crying tears over their fate when black women think they are too “soft” to date.
Ignoring this issue won’t get BW anywhere. If you are driving your car in a ditch, and you aren’t willing to acknowledge your role in holding the steering wheel,
then don’t be surprised you’re in the ditch.
byallie63
6:07 am | Dec 22, 2008Now, if a white girl wants to be angry about something, she should be angry about this: a man of color who, say, dates/marries a white woman not for love, understanding, and long-term companionship, but because he sees her as some sort of status symbol, as though she were a living, breathing fashion accessory. Yeah, she oughtta be angry about THAT.– Senkeh
So what’s the alternative? That black men, on threat of the yelling, screaming, crying and declarations of ’self-hate’ choose a black woman “not for love, understanding, and long-term companionship” but because he sees her as some sort of pity case, someone who will feel insulted and worthless if he rejects her advances for white women , someone who if he doesn’t want to HATE HIMSELF, he must date for the sake of racial purity and authenticity…as though she were a living, breathing parasite who will die without his undivided attention?
Yeah, such a black woman “oughtta be angry” about that kind of portrayal
that the women here give them.
Put simply, there are plenty of black women who reject my advances for what are often stupid reasons. But do I claim some moral obligation to them sexually no. They are autonomous people worthy of respect, although I disagree with their choices. Am I insulted when I see black women go for the “basketball team” and ignore me because I am going for a PhD and don’t look like Usher–HELL YES.
But do I claim some kind of racial obligation to them, no. Do I yell and scream and call black women self hating, no. Not even when THEY GO TO WHITE MEN, after rejecting black men’s advances.
I instead go elsewhere, change my own standards (i.e. look for people who are more likely to find me romantically worthwhile) and keep it pushing. It just happens that the sisters consistently don’t think I’m more than a friend. Fine. It happens then that latino and white women, and women from other countries feel differently. What am I supposed to do…or my friends…or their black male friends who are on the nerdy side supposed to do—stay celibate forever, or wait until black women decide it’s our turn?
*I hope people actually deal with this question instead of ignoring it… the claim of the “self-hate” advocates rests on the assumption that it is up to black men to WAIT for when black women want them, and ONLY limit their sexual choices to them. That for many good black men can be a damn long time…*
It would righftully be called racist, sexist and downright despicable for black men to demand such things of black women. Yet it’s ok for black women to make such claims that sometimes border on new wave race-gender style Third Reichian eugenics where black male basketball players are the “desireable ones” who
should “stick to their own kind.”
We really need to stop this foolishness, but even if we don’t–people will go to those who they are attracted to AND ARE INTERESTED IN THEM. BW won’t make any progress on this issue by shouting down reasonable black men who are taking their time to explain their own frustrations on this issue. No amount of online or in person bullying will make them more willing to take black women seriously as dating partners.
IF ANYTHING, such violent, aggressive behavior on this issue only further gives evidence for the *automatic* rejection of black women… it serves as a sample (whether or not its accurate) of how BW would handle other forms of conflict: the failure to take personal responsibility, the tendency to cluster up and bully people with different points of view, and most of all, name calling (ie “self-hate)” to shout down reasonable opposition. I’d NEVER marry someone who did that stuff, no matter what race they are.
I’m not saying all black women are like this, but way way way too often when this issue comes up these 3 errors keep happening again and again by BW who ought to be smarter than this, and who I know are but choose not to be.
I’ll end on this–if it’s an insult for black men to “reject on face” black women, is it just as evil for black women to “reject on face” black men? I know black women who say that they “do not prefer black men and would not date them.” (direct quote) Senkeh, jaehwan… I’d like to see your explanation of how these black women “hate themselves” and are promoting a flawed aesthetic of white beauty…
If I don’t see it, then that will just prove that all this issue is = BW who are whining that they don’t get what they want, and who use double standards
to guilt people into doing it (guilting which has not, and still does not work).
I hope we can elevate the level of discourse given these points, esp for those BW that feel insulted–changing their mindset and *taking responsibility FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS* gives them a necessary first help to getting what they want.
nightshade
6:32 pm | Dec 22, 2008Two posts to say that black women are whiners, but that you are not? LOL.
Did you specialize in Entitlement at your Ivy League school?
tokyolovestory
6:41 pm | Dec 22, 2008byallie63,
You know, I read through both of your posts and something that I feel I should take the time to address is your desire that black women take responsibility for what other black women are doing.
This is the exact same argument that some AMs make: that I, as an AF, must take responsibility for the actions of the women with whom I share nothing but, maybe, a cultural/national/ethnic background. I do not reject Asian men. Why do I need to take responsibility for the Asian women who do?
Also, the argument of “well, they did it to me first!” has been recycled many times. You will not find much support for that here, except from the men who believe that all AFs need to somehow shoulder the responsibility for their having been rejected by some AFs in their lives. Did you bring the good food to go with the good company and good w(h)ine?
byallie63
7:40 pm | Dec 22, 2008on #77( nightshade), entitlement. You CLEARLY DID NOT READ THE POSTS CAREFULLY. I said explicitly, very very explicitly, and in a lot of very clear extensive prose that I feel 0 entitlement to or from black women. None. Nor do I feel a moral obligation to date them, and I’ve moved on. (hence I’d make hte Wall of Shame)
I probably shouldn’t have mentioned the Ivy League reference because that serves as another easy pot shot for people to avoid the substantive arguments I was making. BW who have this debate seem attracted to these 3rd grade quality
barks to ignore the real issues. That’s too bad, BW are smarter than that, I know they are.
Nor was I whining. I was saying a point of view that many of the people here don’t take seriously , and clearly given the post of number 77, that’s a clear example of the kind of discourse that doesn’t help BW fix the problem. Fine, BW can whine all they want, but unless they take responsibility they won’t change the situation–AT ALL.
On 78.. same thing with whining. Why is it that the long diatribes about the “insult” BW face from BM not dating them aren’t called whining? Why, because
everyone is so hell bent on saying it’s all black men/asian women, etc etc.’s fault but their own, and they refuse to point the finger at themselves. Black men are ALWAYS the problem, black women, when they do really awful things they are ALWAYS RIGHT. I hear this kind of BET nonsense all of the time.
I understand the black feminist arguments and the rejection of the ‘angry black woman’ image…hell I’m writing about 300-400 pages on that stuff myself.
BUT, it is just as sexist to refuse to call people out on their role in creating the gender politics that they are upset about.
Calling me names (that I am whining) because I am critiquing the actions and racism, sexism and prejudice of the black women here on this board is repeating the same nonsense which keeps this a stalemate. You can insult me all you want, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are good black men who
have strong feelings on this issue which are just as legitimate as the other black women here. At least I engage (and refute) their arguments, as opposed to just name dropping. Pretending like the black men on that “Wall of Shame” don’t have a legitimate claim for why they do what they do, that isn’t just “self hate” is to deny them the very agency that black women are crying that they deserve. Again, double standards aren’t persuasive.
If that makes me a whiner for telling it like it is, so damn be it.
In terms of the claim about AF and AM, I can’t speak to that, but when a woman makes a claim based on racial duty that ALL men of their race has a duty to date them first, they aren’t making qualifications…they aren’t nuancing their claims, all they are doing is wanting a double standard that reeks of old school racism—they can overgeneralize, WHINE, demand and name call, but when they get called out on their own forms of oppression, the responders are the ones who are ENTITLED or WHINING or SELF HATING.
Yes post 78 is right. But then again, I’m not the one yelling that I can’t find people to date, as if I’m being oppressed. You guys may not like what I have to say, but the very people you want to persuade (many of them) feel this way. No amount of denial or yelling or Walls of Shame will persuade them. Why would I
EVER date any woman who shows herself so classless, so emotionally reckless, so cheap as to use such a public denigration to slam other black men (who should be appaluded for beating the odds to be the FEW black men into college).
So yes, I stand by my claim, and unsurprisingly, the last 2 posts took the cheap way out in responding.. Many of the same black women I see making these assertions at the same time have no problem exclusively dating white men (which is fine by me), and no problem excluding good black men, and getting furious when those same men find people who want them. It’s the HYPOCRISY that’s incredible to me, it’s the hypocrisy that angers many “good black men” when they see women so violently deal with this issue without apologies.
If BW don’t want to change, I’ve done my part to help them. I’m done here, so people can have fun making unoriginal pot shots and ignoring the substance of what I’m saying…I have money to make and graduate degrees to finish. I won’t read any more drivel here, since I think the last 2 posts are proof of the lack of
willingness by people to talk about this in new, progressive ways.
Keep on name calling — call me ENTITLED, call me whi(n)ey, it won’t help the “oppressed” black women who want black men to date them. The proof
is in the pudding–as long as BW keep on playing the victim despite their own hypocrisy and complicitly in this problem, they’ll remain forever alone and frustrated that they get passed on by. If they don’t want to listen to me or the many, many, many other educated black men who feel this way, (and why it happens) then they get exactly what they deserve.
nightshade
8:03 pm | Dec 22, 2008I never said you were acting like you are entitled to black women. You obviously don’t want to date black women, and that’s your choice. But to ask black women to take responsibility and to stop whining, when you yourself are not ready to do the same is laughable.
I love how you assume that I disregarded what you had to say because you went to an Ivy for grad school. News flash: so did I. So did my black male roommate. Does this make my opinion any better now?
You just don’t get the anger and frustration black women and Asian men feel because you’re in a position of privilege. Get over yourself. What they are feeling isn’t a personal attack on you.
tokyolovestory
8:13 pm | Dec 22, 2008byallie63
*sigh* You are arguing a point I didn’t make. I never said I support hypocrisy. Obviously, if they reject BMs, then BFs should not be complaining when it happens to them.
But that does not justify the same behavior from BMs to reject BFs out of hand just because it’s happened to them before. And, as nightshade said, to demand that all BFs pay the price for the actions of a few is immature and full of self-pity.
Again, “well they did it first” never works. I bet your parents didn’t fall for it when you did it with your siblings as kids, right? And now, it’s not just one or two others you’re demanding be blamed first. It’s an entire half of your ethnic population. Good luck with that.
MadeInTaiwan
2:50 pm | Dec 23, 2008Personally, I think everybody should date anyone they want and pay no attention to any other input. I believe that part of the reason why Ms. Lyde made the “Wall Of Shame” is her frustration with the face that she couldn’t get a date. I hope she realized that her sex life isn’t going to improve as a result of making the “Wall of Shame”.
aznbro
7:39 pm | Dec 23, 2008Does that mean that on average, a BM dating a non-black woman would be shorter than a BM that is with a BW (at your typical university campus)?
nightshade
1:01 am | Dec 27, 2008This sounds like the kind of thing that people say about Asian American men who have legitimate complaints about feeling ignored and undervalued.
Have you thought perhaps the Wall of Shame had to do with racial politics in the United States and not about being unable to get a date?
Senkeh
11:42 pm | Dec 30, 2008You know, some people really shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a computer.
tubesrule
2:58 pm | Mar 05, 2009fortunately for all of us, the current economic meltdown is sure to stoke popular anger. Along with that anger, spontaneous popular outbursts like what those courageous black women did will continue occuring in all sectors of working-class society: witness the demsonstrations in eastern europe, iceland, etc.
The contemporary financial crisis is way beyond a money problem: it’s a huge political opportunity for the global working class to take advantage of the wealthy ruling class’ weakness. One thing is for sure: the post-Vietnam War global political economy crafted and maintained by the Godfather of bosses, the USA, is dead, and the ruling classes of all nations will not recover from this deathblow.
These are the beginings of the best political movements since the 60s and 70s.
Our time has finally arrived where we can hash out democratic processes that profit the many, not the few. Wealth can and will be spread, not accumulated.
Racism will be revealed as an issue of profit, not merely as an issue of laying blame to particular groups that profit the most from racism.
A good example of the social utility of racism is the experience of white southerner job-seekers versus white mid-western job seekers migrating to California in the 1930s Depression; Southerners were attacked and villified beyond anything their Mid-West counterparts experienced.
For us here in the US, how about a universal plan to pay caregivers for their in-home care of minors, and non-minors? What about reparations for Blacks? Abolishing the insurance industry and having a single-payer health care industry?
tubesrule
4:09 pm | Mar 05, 2009I will repeat what I consider to be critical part of analogisnumberone’s arguement: black women (and all blacks for that matter) have a legitimate issue and they chose to take a valid political action in posting the names. The fact that they did so should embolden all of us, black or not, to scrutinize closely all aspects of the social contract.
For the Whites and others who feel put upon, try considering this: if a man claimed that he’s not to blame for being a man, and that he intends no harm, he would rightly be dismissed for stating an irrelevancy. The point is, men profit simply by being men.
The issue in a Racist society is profit. Individual intent and circumstance have nothing to do with profit.